Ask RealNetworks CEO Rob Glaser 379
RealNetworks has always been more Linux-friendly than other streaming media purveyors, and is now moving closer to the open source camp with its Helix Community effort. More recently, Real has made a big media splash by selling downloadable tunes in an iPod-compatible format. Does any of this matter, considering that world + dog seems to be jumping on the downloadable multimedia bandwagon? Can Real once again become "the" streaming media leader? Will Real's 49 cent "limited time only" song download price force other music download vendors to cut their prices? We have no idea, but hopefully Rob Glaser does. He's promised to answer your questions personally (rather than have PR people speak for him). So ask whatever you like. We'll forward 10 of the highest-moderated questions to him by email and post his answers soon after he gets them back to us.
Apple Support (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Apple Support (Score:5, Insightful)
Since RealNetworks objects to Apple constraining use of their proprietary formats, when does RealNetworks plan to set an example by opening up all of their file formats for free use and modification by other competing companies?
Yes, ASK THIS (Score:5, Interesting)
Real is one of the few companies left that controls a common file format and doesn't also publish an OS. And they're everywhere, from Amazon to NPR. Spyware? DRM? Distractions. This is the ball game. Nothing else matters.
Re:Apple Support (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Apple Support (Score:5, Insightful)
Interesting addition to the question, but unfortunately it is based on a presumption that is not technically correct. Both Apple and Real use the same compression format (MPEG AAC) in their music stores. This is not a proprietary format. It is a standard. It can be decoded with a cheap ASIC, which is why it is a popular choice for portable digital music devices.
I believe what RealNetworks objects to is that Apple is not licensing their "fairplay" DRM technology to allow other legal music download stores (such as Real's) to offer their product to iPod owners.
The important question here is: "Why can't all of the technology companies unify under one common, open DRM solution so every device works with every music store and vice versa?" However, this question is probably better posed to Steve Jobs and Bill Gates than to Rob Glaser. When are those guys going to do a slashdot interview?
The reason that nobody can unite behind a single DRM technology is that certain technology companies would either like to own the music download and device business completely (Apple), or they would like their DRM solution to become the defacto standard so they can become a toll collector on all digital music transactions (Microsoft). Personally, I don't like either of those possibilities, and I'm glad to see a company putting a wrench in those plans, even if it's RealNetworks.
Re:Apple Support (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm aware of that, but what is a format, really? By adding the DRM, you've changed the way the file works- or at least the routine by which it's accessed. I think your objection is a bit of a red herring, though technically correct.
The important question here is: "Why can't all of the technology companies unify under one common, open DRM solution so every device works with every music store and vice versa?"......I'm glad to see a company putting a wrench in those plans, even if it's RealNetworks
Oh, I pray to god they don't. I'd rather the various companies remain deadlocked. If they come to a common DRM, it's very unlikely to be open, and in any event, it's likely to make DRM an accepted societal norm. Far better that these companies continue to fight it out publicly, crippling consumer goods as they go, drawing attention to the problems inherent in the idea of DRM.
Re:Apple Support (Score:3, Interesting)
Although, I do feel that everyone should follow suit in that music players should support a plethora of DRM formats, and the format should be open to player manufacturers that sign a similar contract to that of DVD's CSS. That way, everyone wins, and inovation is encouraged for stronger form
Re:Apple Support (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Why do you really have so little faith in your product? If you offered a superior player and service Mac users would switch. Your player already supports songs from iTunes Music Store so that would ease the transition.
2. Is it really impossible to make drm capable quicktime components? Because with Real component your songs would play in iTunes.
What's it like (Score:2, Interesting)
When the line between troll and insightful blurs (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:When the line between troll and insightful blur (Score:5, Funny)
I'd only piss on them if they weren't on fire.
Re:What's it like (Score:2, Interesting)
Also, how do you really plan on setting yourself apart and being more linux-USER friendly? Most, if not all people who use linux I know also use Real Alternative for MPC on their Windows machines/partitions as opposed to the actual Real Player.
Re:What's it like (Score:2)
Re:What's it like (Score:4, Informative)
RP10 for Linux is honestly really nice. It's got a very minimal GUI, it's quite snappy, and in general they've addressed most of the points that Linux users have had over the years. Basically the only one that I can see remaining is that you still can't "Save as..." on any realmedia. Oh, and there's still the "send connection-quality data to Real" option which you can disable if you want. The new release was pretty much geared towards Linux users who had been fed up with RealPlayers of years past.
It still comes down to price, for a lot of us (Score:5, Interesting)
Cheers,
Erick
Re:It still comes down to price, for a lot of us (Score:5, Insightful)
exspecially for those albums that only have one or two good songs that you listen to over and over.
Re:It still comes down to price, for a lot of us (Score:2, Informative)
Re:It still comes down to price, for a lot of us (Score:2)
Re:It still comes down to price, for a lot of us (Score:2)
so I could buy 24 a day every day. but beer is better.
RealPod (Score:5, Funny)
Buffering....
Buffering....
fuss about this, does Real have any plans
Buffering....
Buffering....
to develop a competing portable music player?
Re:RealPod (Score:2)
[Buffering...]
interoperability (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:interoperability (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:interoperability (Score:3, Informative)
So, certainly no BMI groups in there, or anything, but here's hoping that it'll trickle up a bit...
Not Yet - But Maybe They'll Get It (Score:5, Interesting)
I have basically all the money I want to spend on music. But whether tracks are $.39 or $.99 or $1.99 means nothing to me if I'm worried about just losing them. Some of this music I've already had ripped ot mp3 for like 7+ years now, and I can't even count the number of computers I've gone through, and it's nice and portable.
I think at some point, a brave label or two will band together, open their own store, and just offer raw 160+kbps mp3s for something cheap - probably $.49 to $1.49 for singles (probably based on the buzz level), $2.99 to $9.99 for a cd (again, popularity based pricing)... and will open the floodgates. They will do so much business they will be absolutely stunned. Ever music consumer will be amazingly spending 3x what they use to be. Record companies will be delightfully rolling in profits; consumers will be awash in music and ecstatic... everyone wins. Artists who couldn't sell CDs in the bargain bin will find audiences who will pay $2.99 for their albums, and the music industry as a whole will launch into a new era of growth.
We can only hope they realize that peoplpe hate hurdles, and DRM stops more customers from buying than it stops pirates from buying. Anyone with a clue should realize that a lot of music pirates will NOT buy music regardless of whether its free or not. If it is, they'll get it; if not, they won't. But either way, they won't pay. But many customers will pay for unencumbered music but will buy minimally or not at all from the DRM bin.
Re:interoperability (Score:2)
Re:interoperability (Score:5, Insightful)
How on earth is this post insightful? Even if we assume that Real was willing to use an unencumbered format, then what about the actual copyright holders, like the RIAA, who have made very clear that this sort of thing would be totally unacceptable? By the same token, why doesn't Apple sell unencumbered MP3s (or AACs, or whatever your particular poison is in this case) so that Linux users can play them without the hassle of messing around with Wine?
Let's keep some perspective on this whole thing, folks....
Re:interoperability Mod this down, wasted question (Score:5, Informative)
The answer is as follows:
To compete with Napster 2.0, MSN Music and iTunes, Real needs to have a similar amount of music available to them, and a similar amount of big names.
The big names are, for the most part, only available through labels that are members of the RIAA. You can gripe about this if you want, but the fact is that the artists *signed* the form to grant the label distribution rights, and that's exactly what the label is doing.
For Real to get these big names, they need to deal with the RIAA. The RIAA has shown in the past that it will not endorse any music that is not restricted in some fashion... either streaming, or DRM. If the best Steve Jobs could do was 7 playlist burns, you can bet that Real can't do any better.
There. I just answered the question and I'm not even CEO of anything at all. Poof.
Media formats and proprietary control. (Score:5, Insightful)
World + dog (Score:2)
Re:World + dog (Score:2)
"Clean" Software - no Cruft? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:"Clean" Software - no Cruft? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:"Clean" Software - no Cruft? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:"Clean" Software - no Cruft? (Score:2)
Granted, from there there's a few more steps to having a decent player: close the bottom pane, view->show related info. And then a couple of options deselected from Connection->Internet/Privacy and Automatic Services->AutoUpdate. So I'll admit that there's still some stuff to d
Re:"Clean" Software - no Cruft? (Score:3, Informative)
From Linux: Go to www.real.com, click on "Download RealPlayer." (file starts downloading)
From Windows: Go to www.real.com (different page comes up), click on "Download RealPlayer free." (file starts downloading)
If you're not getting either of those frontpages, I wouldn't know how to help you.
Re:"Clean" Software - no Cruft? (Score:2)
Completely spyware free. Doesn't install any System Tray icons - in fact I can't find much wrong with it yet.
I wanted to watch the BBC Olympics coverage, so I took the risk of downloading it and it seems to have paid off.
MOD PARENT MORON (Score:3, Informative)
http://forms.real.com/rnforms/products/tools/red/ [real.com]
Spyware (Score:5, Interesting)
Will your company ever stop the spyware attacks on users of your products?
Why should we believe anything you say?
Re:Spyware (Score:2)
Goodwill (Score:5, Interesting)
Why exactly would I look to Real for anything? What is better (other than price) about anything Real has to offer, compared to Apple, Microsoft, etc? What compelling reason do you offer for me to again look at Real?
Re:Goodwill (Score:2)
Well, I don't know that I really ever recommended it to anyone in the first place, but I definitely dislike them more now than ever before.
Is it possible to issue a company a cease and desist order for their own benefit? (:
Re:Goodwill (Score:2)
Not anymore.
Obligatory (Score:2, Funny)
Helix (Score:5, Interesting)
What is he going to do about the player? (Score:4, Interesting)
As it is, RealPlayer is universally despised for several reasons, many of them valid. the few that grind me are:
1. It's more than one click away from the main website.
2. It tries to take over your system as a default media system and sign you up for all kinds of spam on install.
3. It's BUTT ugly. It looks like the rejects from the XP UI team were hired to design it, when the rejects from the QuickTime UI team would have been a better choice.
4. I can't DL the content of RealMedia, like I can with mpeg or quickTime.
5. It's a bit [buffering 10%] too eager [buffering 25%] to send media [buffering 40%] before it's [buffering 75%] ready. And scrubbing [buffering 85%] is nearly [buffering 95%] impossible.
Fix these problems, and people might take Real Seriously. So the question is:
WHEN are you going to fix these OBVIOUS deficiencies that have plagued the player for YEARS?
RS
Re:What is he going to do about the player? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What is he going to do about the player? (Score:4, Informative)
Several, actually.
I get redirected to "uk.real.com/radiopass/?&src=ZG.uk.idx" from real.com, and I have to select the 'RadioPass Trial' download button because there is no free player link anywhere to be seen.
I then have to deselect some "free trial offer!" tick-boxes and enter an e-mail address, say I'm a new customer ... so i guess they expect me to register and give a password ... and a credit card!
I think my question has to be: why is your company the cunt of the media software world?
Re:What is he going to do about the player? (Score:2)
Actually, that's not true. If you're streaming real media with a streaming server, you can't download it. If you're streaming QuickTime with the QuickTime/Darwin Streaming Server, you can't download it. If you're streaming MPEG with *cast, you can't download it.
Most of the time, though, you can. Most of those 30 byte Real files just contain an http URL for the actual content....
Re:What is he going to do about the player? (Score:5, Interesting)
There is a really wierd thing with real website. They have a different website depending og whenewer you are located in europa or usa.
The one you got if you visit from Europa(Atleast from denmark) you got the "old" real site which show 3 "Free download" 14 days trial" which ask you all kind of questions before it allow you to download the thing that only work 14 days anyway.
But the eu version of the site have a option to "change your location" and if you choose u.s.a as location it will bring you to the frontpage that got the "one link download"
Ofcause a interesting question to real would be: Why the difference. Why do we in EU still have to put up with all that crap just to download real?Turnabout? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why shouldn't Apple do this?
open keys for realmedia ? (Score:5, Interesting)
could real allow people to create and sign their REAL media that they created at no cost ?
so allow people to create their own online stores rather than sign up to itunes or MSN
this way you just sell server software to ISP's and streaming people (profitable)
regards
John Jones
Why should I trust Real? (Score:5, Interesting)
But as time went on, Real became a company I distrusted due to their spyware-like behaviour and the fact they tried to hide options to disable said behaviour in their software.
It has gotten to the point where MANY computer users I know simply refuse to install ANY Real products on their computers anymore and even boycott web sites that offer content in Real-only format.
So, why should I trust your company now? How has any of that changed?
Thanks.
Disclaimer - The preceding may have resembled a flame or troll to those who cannot tell the difference between an honset question and a troll.
Re:Why should I trust Real? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why should I trust Real? (Score:2)
Right here. Straight up refusal.
The gui appearance is horrible, the long commerical the player plays the first time you run it.. those two things top the Reasons To Not Use Real list for me.
To Real's Credit: you don't have to uncheck 20something boxes to turn off what their marketing people want turned on, and
Legality of Harmony (Score:5, Interesting)
Hey Rob G... (Score:5, Funny)
That sucked.
Re:Hey Rob G... (Score:5, Insightful)
Asking the not-too-obvious but deeply related issue of a company that doesn't give a f*ck about people might get a more honest answer because he doesn't have PR handlers coaching him on this point.
Re:Hey Rob G... (Score:3, Informative)
Um.....what exactly makes you think the PR handlers aren't going to have say over every character he types in response to this? They're sending him some questions, he gets to take his time to research and respond in the best way possible. Yeah, its an interview with the man at the top, but don't be expecting
Could you elaborate? (Score:3)
Re:Could you elaborate? (Score:5, Interesting)
Real then did what was viewed at the time as the coolest thing ever: The stock re-entrant program thingy (I forget exactly what it was called.) What it meant was that whatever the stock price was on August 31st of that year would be retroactively applied to our shares, including those that had already vested.
Rock on. Quite a few of us signed up for it on the promise of making our now-worthless shares valuable again. There was some fine print, of course. We had to remain employed at Real or we would lose all our stock, including vested shares.
The bastards fired us one month before the deadline. No warning. Our floor managers didn't even know until that morning that 15% of the entire company would be layed off that day.
I went out for lunch (yummy fish tacos!) and when I returned there was a group of employees and some security guards outside the front door. They weren't letting anyone in. After half an hour word spread that there were layoffs happening but we didn't have any details.
Finally a guy in a really expensive suit came down and told us to go home. We be getting a phone call later that evening to let us know if we still had a job.
The next day I was unemployeed and competing with 30,000 other out-of-work programmers in the Seattle area for jobs.
Now I'm back in Montana making $9/hr and eating a fair amount of ramen.
An very importatnt question: Why... (Score:2, Funny)
FairPlay licensing (Score:5, Interesting)
Nice, but.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Real Obnoxious (Score:5, Interesting)
Why is the free version the hardest version to find on your website?
Why must I choose a custom install and play a game of "catch-em-all" to avoid some of these issues?
Why does Real assume I'm interested in news, updates, libraries, or any of the nonsense that it is configured for by your company?
In short, why does Real feel the need to be so Obnoxious? These are "real" questions posed by "real" users, like here [jogin.com] and supported by your own employees [jogin.com]!
Re:Real Obnoxious (Score:3, Insightful)
Why is Real so intrusive into the average windows system when using the express installation method? [...]
The Realplayer installation is not intrusive. It is customary practice for many software packages aimed at a general public to install visible and easily discoverable ways to launch them. Experienced users can customize their installations to a large degree. M
Strategy Question (Score:5, Interesting)
Rob, what advantages does Real bring to the table? What can Real do that no other company can do? Why does Real exist? What the hell are you doing?
Tell us about the DRM stripping approach you took (Score:4, Interesting)
In your PR for Harmony - you stated that this was a ground up software approach.
Was there ANY reverse engineering?
I also find it VERY hard to believe that you didn't borrow some code from HYMN to produce this software - will you emphatically and categorically deny any code borrowing or reverse engineering?
Lessons learned from astroturfing (Score:5, Interesting)
cat and mouse game ! (Score:2)
apple could keep upgrading Fairplay [just like yahoo and msn keep upgrading their authentication scheme
of their IMs to keep away third-party IM's like gaim [sourceforge.net] and trillian [trillian.cc]]...
would Harmony keep up with Fairplay just as well ?.
Mr. Glaser, just one more question... (Score:5, Interesting)
Real Movies (Score:5, Interesting)
Will you offer the movies that currently play in movie theaters for additional fees? Will you offer the movies that just came out on DVDs?
Will you promote independent movies and if I work for an independent studio, how can we strike a partnership with Real Networks to distribute the content to your subscribers in some affordable way?
legalities (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:legalities (Score:3, Interesting)
Some people just want to be enslaved, and think that we should all lock our codecs into proprietary vendors formats and ban reverse engineering so a few companies can monopolize the market through completely artificial software & format barriers. They can pretend it's about technology but anyone with a clue can see this for what it is, lock up your cash.
It's just amazing how this Apple thing has turned rational
Helix to play RealAudio/Video (Score:3, Interesting)
First off (Score:5, Interesting)
Linux-compatible multimedia players (Score:3, Insightful)
Are you looking to sell Real? (Score:2, Interesting)
Open Source.. but why no HELIX on Windows? (Score:5, Interesting)
Helix must build on Windows as its the basis for all your software, but Win32 users are forced to use the RealPlayer, which some may find undesirable... while other platforms have the option of Helix without proprietary codecs. Is this really choice ?
Bloat (Score:2)
Why sell music downloads at all?? (Score:4, Interesting)
Astroturfing (Score:2, Interesting)
Pro open-source? Bah! (Score:2)
I hate Real Networks (Score:2)
My question is.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Dear Rob (Score:2)
Backwards compat moving forward (Score:2)
Streambox (Score:4, Interesting)
Is there any difference between Apple invoking the DMCA on Real's reverse engineering of FairPlay and Real's prior DMCA invocation against Streambox?
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-11-517481.html?legacy
Also, what is your favorite kind of pie?
Rob, What will you do when Apple breaks your... (Score:5, Interesting)
And as a side question, How come your company sued another company reverse engineering your codecs? Seems what should be good for the goose should be good for the gander.
No PR People? (Score:2)
Slashdotters and open-source types are just a new target market for them. I think they view us as Honda views street racers - not a significant enough chunk to make money from, but damn, does it give you street cred if they like your products. Every public response they make to us will be vetted to appeal to that demographic.
-j
Real Cancer (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you compare yourselves to folks like Google who even my mother trusts totally?
I ask this in light of your consistent corporate behavior, which has included:
- You used to spam me to no end. And this spamming was EPIC, I still can not believe how much junk you, and how impossible it was to stop getting it.
- Your player started taking over my system, including "important" pop up messages in my "message center" that were nothing but commercial pitches. Do you have any idea what is important in people's lives? Not buying more goldpass/superpass combo's!
- This behavior was clearly calculated, and the options to disable this bloated junk was extremely hard to access or enable (it poped up a warning dialog).
- The fact that corporate help desk folks shudder when end users express install the end user version of the real player virus on their PC's.
- The fact that when I visit older folks I inevitably find that their system has been taken over by Real, and that in addition to the desktop, system tray, message center junk, the associations they have selected (IMAGES in Realplayer? please) make no sense.
Have you focused on serving your customers, or screwing the folks who installed your software for as much cash as you could get from them while hiding behind claims of "features" and "benefits".
Before you claim trust, you have to change the people behind the claim.
Ogg Vorbis for Real's music service? (Score:3, Interesting)
GPL (Score:3, Funny)
Pretty please?
"/Dread"
Why is Real's software so intrusive? (Score:5, Interesting)
While it seems that Real has backed its intrusiveness down a notch during the install, I still feel like Real is telling me what to do on my computer instead of the other way around. For example - Telling Real not to start when windows starts is no easy task. I have to go through 3 or four submenus in the preferences until I find the vaguely-named SmartCenter (or StartCenter? I don't have a machine handy to doublecheck the name). Even then, when I tell it not to start with Windows, I am greeted by a scary warning message. Even with SmartCenter disabled, Real's update service still lives in my registry, starting every time I boot windows.
So my question is, why try so hard to force your software on the user? Is it worth the market share to anger and confuse your core audience? Mention Real to the average user, and their first response is "I hate that software. I wish I knew how to delete it."
I've always been taught that it's best to make your customers happy, instead of holding them hostage. Does your business model say otherwise?
Airtunes (Score:3, Interesting)
Do you plan to support streaming via Airtunes's protocol to adapters such as the Airport Express?
Thanks!
Hedley
Realplayer, content providers, etc. (Score:3, Interesting)
Have you considered a stripped down, player only utility for the Windows platform? I understand your desire to market other services, but honestly the current Real One offering is more of a burden on the system than it is worth.
Why do you expect content providers would pay for your Real studio application to create content for such a horrible player?
Just a CODEC to plug into Microsoft Media Player 9 would be great. Personally I use utilities to convert the RealMedia format the MPEG1, to avoid the hassle of dealing with your player product.
The earlier Windows Media production suite was also a blatent rip off of your Real Producer product. I can see Microsoft had their eyes on your company.
I haven't tried Media Player 10, maybe Microsoft took your lead in making a player utility that is bloated, slow, resource consuming, and nagware ridden?
I realize MP3 is not an open standard, and that the freeware utilities to produce MP3 audio streams are probably not licensed from Thompson, the newer holder to the rights of the mp3 format. But the compatibility across platforms can't be beat.
I won't use quicktime due to the Windows nagware feature. Once again, content producers PAY for the production tools, the end users should be able to see the end result without paying to get full screen capabilities.
If only there was a streaming video equivilent to MP3.
Why can I not DECODE Real audio files? (Score:3, Insightful)
You claim that Real is all about choice and opennness. However, your license agreements for your SDK outright prohibit using your software to create programs that will decode Real files and transcode them into other formats. Even unprotected Real audio files may not be converted to AIFF or MP3, according to your license. You have threatened legal action against people for doing so, also.
I know that I, for one, will never purchase files which I am prohibited from transcoding into other formats.
If you're really about openness and freedom of choice, why don't you let me choose what format I keep my audio files in?
Currently I have to play back Real audio of radio shows in real time, record the output to AIFF, then re-encode to MP3, so that I can play on my MP3 player. It'd be so much better if I could just go straight from Real audio to MP3.
My little questions (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Why did I get for my expensive subscription to the Euro 2004 only crappy video streams?
2. Why should I care about Real since they have ignored my feature requests and pleas for a better software for years?
3. Why should I install another media player that wants me to sell only expensive mini clips and radio stations that are mostly for free anyway?
4. And even when I subscribe to the radio pass, I still get stuttering streams and bad quality - can't you deliver what you promise and charge me for?
5. Why has Real missed the train to develop and support truely open initiatives like DIVX (in the beginning), XVID or the new BBC format?
6. Since Real complains about Apple's ignorance I like to complain about Reals lacking support and ignorance for MD-Players and so many other third party devices. Why am I ignored just because I have a not so cool tool?
7. Why is Real Server software so extremely expensive compared to Apples streaming solution?
8. Why does every media player have such a fancy interfaces that follow no standards except their own? Can't you comply to the standards of the OS the player is running on?
9. When will Real admit the failure and stop doing the RealArcade? There are hardly any unique products in there and I can buy most of them without the surrounding Real hype.
10. How much money has Real left in the bank to survive against Apple and Microsoft?
That's it.
Why did it take you so long to wake up? (Score:3, Interesting)
I worked at a TV station a couple of years ago. At that time, we - like most everyone else - streamed using Real's codecs and formats. Since then, they have completely switched to WMV3 (for Windows Media Player 9+). I don't know the history surrounding the decision to switch, but I can certainly think of many reasons.
Everyone with just a microgram of brains could see Microsoft coming, leveraging their platform monopoly - BUT also very much helped by the fact that almost everybody hated Real's (client) player-software, and pretty much still do:
This leads me to my question: Why on Earth did you sleep for so long?! You must have seen competition coming; in such a senario: why did you strive so hard to make foes with everyone?
The Helix project was years over-due (probably too late to make a difference, by now), and your recent (and incomplete) end-user improvements on the web-site were even more over-due.
Tell me: Exactly what major changes in your organization (such as getting rid of the jerks who stressed a goofy revenue-from-deived-end-users strategy) have your completed that should make me think again about trusting your strategy, products and distribution system? I'm asking because I don't want to waste a second keeping in touch with the development of the Helix projects, unless I'm convinced that your company has turned 180 degrees.
Parent is a troll (Score:2)
RS