American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?
Is this a flame? Programmers cant form unions in the U.S., at least in practical terms. We'd just be fired and replaced. The US work week is usually well in excess of 40 hours, with no overtime. We get a paltry 2 weeks vacation a year, which oftentimes we are discourage/prevented from taking. Insurance costs are skyrocketing, including copays and out of pocket expenses. Profit sharing and stock options are from the last century.
Yes, but you are guaranteed many things like family and medical leave, workplace health and safety standards, freedom from discrimination for a laundry list of protected classes (race, sex, age, sexual orientation in many cases etc.), a minimum wage, at companies of a certain size (which isn't very big, like 250+ employees) you must be offered health insurance at group rates, unemployment insurance, social security etc. I completely agree with your assessment of how hostile things have become, but what still remains is a huge percentage of the cost of American labor.
by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Monday February 09, 2004 @02:11PM (#8227484)
I have just abandoned my Engineering job in US, and returned to Canada.
What you said couldn't be more true. People in the US are screaming about worker right and such, but where I was working, there as this thing called "Freedom to Work Law" which states something to the effect that if you want to quit you got the legal right to do so, and if your boss want to let you go, he can do so at the moment notice - so much for job protection.
The result of such law and working environment? Well, when my boss' in his office, everyone pretends to work hard; when he is off, no one work, Period!
Oh, Med insurance, co pay, and deduction are entirely different matter. Talk about the US education system with its "Left no Child Behind" initiative - what a joke.
By the time all these things figured out, my pay checks was much smaller than what I would make here in Canada, where I have to work for a grand total of 37.5 hours per week.
Did I say my US employer only expects me to work a minimum of 45 hours per weeek?
Here in Georgia we also have "Right to work" laws. I have no problem with them.
When are people going to understand that they are not entitled to a job? If there is a need for a person and that person can do the work, that person gets a job. If there is no longer a need for a position in a company, that person gets laid off. What's so hard to understand here?
A job isn't a right. The pursuit of a job is a right!
Look at it this way. If you own a company and you could use some extra help, are you going
I agree, the government isn't the answer, we are the answer. And, yes, according to you, we're supposed to understand that only Kings and those that live like kings have any rights, and that everyone else is supposed to conveniently starve and die if they can't find a job. The reason I'm supposed to starve and die is because somone else told me to, and I need to subserviently accept the rules of the system as they are presented. Nevermind that they don't work in my favor, I need to show proper subordinat
what the hell are you talking about? We invented revolutions here (same place you are, America), The guillotine was invented to prove that there are *worse* things than kings. There has never been a million Frenchmen lined up in one place, although if there were, it would become a riot. In America we (that's you and me) invented a way so that a million people can have their voices heard without rioting. It's worked so well, that we've had the longest running continuous government in history. Sure, it'
And, yes, according to you, we're supposed to understand that only Kings and those that live like kings have any rights,
What? Sounds like you have a problem with authority more than anything else. You as an employee of a company have rights. You have the right to pick up your things and walk out the front door if you do not like your job. You have the right to start your own company (probably like one of your bosses did one day). Of course, this is all assuming that YOU as an INDIVIDUAL did not make
Well, I'm in the top 10%, not doing quite as well as you, but good enough for the time being, and my family definitely was not rich.
What I'm talking about isn't so much for me. I'll do fine. However, just becasue people like you and I do fine isn't saying much. Intelligent, resourceful people can do well just about anywhere, China, Cuba, and Iraq, would all love to have guys like us (well, ok, I would be a big enough pain in the ass that I would get shot, but other than that, I could probably live a goo
You mention: "A job isn't a right. The pursuit of a job is a right!"
Here's a question, what makes something a right? Why do we have rights?
Why is the pursuit of a job a right? Couldn't one use the same justification to also make having a job a right?
You might say, "a right to a job would infringe on certain people's property rights." Yes, we could make that argument, but then I suppose that you could also say that someone's right to life also interferes with my ability to use my property as I see fit (
According to this logic, those that live outside the US have no rights, since the "Declaration of Independence" only applies to the US (after all, it's US independence that they're declaring, right?). If one's rights are determined only by a sheet of paper, and only applicalbe depending on the geographical region that they live in, then that would seem to be evidence of the arbitrary nature of how a value is assigned the status of a "right".
Note that just because something is arbitrarily defined and agree
Here in Georgia we also have "Right to work" laws. I have no problem with them.
When are people going to understand that they are not entitled to a job?
It's not entitlement that's the problem, but the lopsided nature of the law. It is common courtesy to give your boss two weeks' notice when you leave, especially if you would like to retain the individual as a future reference. However, I have witnessed a co-worker who found a new job, arranged to start in two weeks, and turned in a notice but was asked to
I agree entirely that this is something companies should not do. I also agree that it is rude when companies use SWAT team members to escort fired employees from the office (this happend at my place of work).
I sometimes think that 2 week notice thing is a little overemphasized. The HR departments of most companies (Lucent, for example) have changed their policies of referals of former employees to simply be able to confirm or deny that said employee worked at the company for so long.
Here's a question for libertarians supporting "right to work" laws: These laws, I guess, are supposed to protect freedom of contract. And yet a union contract requiring new workers to join the union -- put in effect at time t' -- results from contractual negotiation between the union (chosen representative of the set of workers at time t) and the company. Why is there not a contradiction here?
Over 40 hours/week and no OT?? Man, I think you seriously need to look for a new job...
My first rule of thumb is..."I do not work for free". I work, I work hard, and do what it takes to get the job done, but, I do not work for free.
Look into contracting, friend...at least get paid for the work you do. I'm a contract employee...kind of in both worlds. I get 4 weeks a year vacation/sick time...10 holidays..until last 2 years..didn't have to pay anything towards my benefits..now, I pay $8/paycheck for full coverage (med, dental, eye).
Good jobs are out there, but, you gotta be flexible...and go to where they are...
I work more than 40 hours a week as well, with no OT. I guess I just love my job that much.
Actually, part of why I do it right now is that my employer (a public school district) is going through budget cuts. I know I'm not irreplaceable, but I'll work hard to make sure I'm seen as a "vital member of the team".
Is this a flame? Programmers cant form unions in the U.S., at least in practical terms. We'd just be fired and replaced. The US work week is usually well in excess of 40 hours, with no overtime. We get a paltry 2 weeks vacation a year, which oftentimes we are discourage/prevented from taking. Insurance costs are skyrocketing, including copays and out of pocket expenses. Profit sharing and stock options are from the last century.
I have seen 2 different studies that confirm what you are saying. One said
Could you just join an existing union without telling your employer? Then, if you were unfairly fired, injured at work or otherwise in conflict with your employer, the union would be there to provide legal representation.
Well put. Being a programmer requires a gamblers heart. You're fighting the clock to stay relevant and productive. There's always the threat that there will be a way to replace you with an entry level employee, H1-B visa holder or offshore workers. You have to avoid overcommiting, but not seem difficult. And long hours, weekend work and being willing to dispose of your vacation time are the sign of committment. Compensation stays stagnant, insurance costs rise, other costs rise as well.
I am an Indian who worked in New Delhi after doing my post-graduation in 1989. I worked till 1995 when I moved to USA and then to Canada in 1998.
When I worked there, the working conditions were quite stressful. I worked in companies doing software development for domestic market. Outsourcing had not yet taken off, it was starting taxing to the runway.
Someone else has said cubicles are now standard fare. In my time, there weren't any. There were tables allotted to programmers in a large room or hall. (I am
Quality of life (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Quality of life (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Quality of life (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Quality of life (Score:5, Insightful)
What you said couldn't be more true. People in the US are screaming about worker right and such, but where I was working, there as this thing called "Freedom to Work Law" which states something to the effect that if you want to quit you got the legal right to do so, and if your boss want to let you go, he can do so at the moment notice - so much for job protection.
The result of such law and working environment? Well, when my boss' in his office, everyone pretends to work hard; when he is off, no one work, Period!
Oh, Med insurance, co pay, and deduction are entirely different matter. Talk about the US education system with its "Left no Child Behind" initiative - what a joke.
By the time all these things figured out, my pay checks was much smaller than what I would make here in Canada, where I have to work for a grand total of 37.5 hours per week.
Did I say my US employer only expects me to work a minimum of 45 hours per weeek?
Yup the previous poster was just trolling.
Bye America.
Re:Quality of life (Score:2)
When are people going to understand that they are not entitled to a job? If there is a need for a person and that person can do the work, that person gets a job. If there is no longer a need for a position in a company, that person gets laid off. What's so hard to understand here?
A job isn't a right. The pursuit of a job is a right!
Look at it this way. If you own a company and you could use some extra help, are you going
Re:Quality of life (Score:2)
Re:Quality of life (Score:1)
Re:Quality of life (Score:2)
What? Sounds like you have a problem with authority more than anything else. You as an employee of a company have rights. You have the right to pick up your things and walk out the front door if you do not like your job. You have the right to start your own company (probably like one of your bosses did one day). Of course, this is all assuming that YOU as an INDIVIDUAL did not make
Re:Quality of life (Score:2)
What I'm talking about isn't so much for me. I'll do fine. However, just becasue people like you and I do fine isn't saying much. Intelligent, resourceful people can do well just about anywhere, China, Cuba, and Iraq, would all love to have guys like us (well, ok, I would be a big enough pain in the ass that I would get shot, but other than that, I could probably live a goo
PS. What is a right? (Score:1)
"A job isn't a right. The pursuit of a job is a right!"
Here's a question, what makes something a right? Why do we have rights?
Why is the pursuit of a job a right? Couldn't one use the same justification to also make having a job a right?
You might say, "a right to a job would infringe on certain people's property rights." Yes, we could make that argument, but then I suppose that you could also say that someone's right to life also interferes with my ability to use my property as I see fit (
Re:PS. What is a right? (Score:1)
Re:PS. What is a right? (Score:2)
What right did I claim was arbitrary? Clearly I would equate "persuit of happiness" with "right to find a job"!
Re:PS. What is a right? (Score:2)
Note that just because something is arbitrarily defined and agree
Re:Quality of life (Score:2)
It's not entitlement that's the problem, but the lopsided nature of the law. It is common courtesy to give your boss two weeks' notice when you leave, especially if you would like to retain the individual as a future reference. However, I have witnessed a co-worker who found a new job, arranged to start in two weeks, and turned in a notice but was asked to
Re:Quality of life (Score:2)
I sometimes think that 2 week notice thing is a little overemphasized. The HR departments of most companies (Lucent, for example) have changed their policies of referals of former employees to simply be able to confirm or deny that said employee worked at the company for so long.
Re:Quality of life (Score:2)
"Right To Work" laws are anti-union. They allow an individual to work without a union REQUIRING him to join the union and pay union dues.
Re:Quality of life (Score:1)
Re:Quality of life (Score:4, Insightful)
My first rule of thumb is..."I do not work for free". I work, I work hard, and do what it takes to get the job done, but, I do not work for free.
Look into contracting, friend...at least get paid for the work you do. I'm a contract employee...kind of in both worlds. I get 4 weeks a year vacation/sick time...10 holidays..until last 2 years..didn't have to pay anything towards my benefits..now, I pay $8/paycheck for full coverage (med, dental, eye).
Good jobs are out there, but, you gotta be flexible...and go to where they are...
Re:Quality of life (Score:2)
Actually, part of why I do it right now is that my employer (a public school district) is going through budget cuts. I know I'm not irreplaceable, but I'll work hard to make sure I'm seen as a "vital member of the team".
Re:Quality of life (Score:2)
Re:Quality of life (Score:1)
I have seen 2 different studies that confirm what you are saying. One said
Re:Quality of life (Score:1)
Re:Quality of life (Score:1)
You're fighting the clock to stay relevant and productive.
There's always the threat that there will be a way to replace you with an entry level employee, H1-B visa holder or offshore workers.
You have to avoid overcommiting, but not seem difficult.
And long hours, weekend work and being willing to dispose of your vacation time are the sign of committment.
Compensation stays stagnant, insurance costs rise, other costs rise as well.
Re:Quality of life (Score:1, Interesting)
When I worked there, the working conditions were quite stressful. I worked in companies doing software development for domestic market. Outsourcing had not yet taken off, it was starting taxing to the runway.
Someone else has said cubicles are now standard fare. In my time, there weren't any. There were tables allotted to programmers in a large room or hall. (I am
Re:Quality of life (Score:4, Funny)
Was that when you were working in India, or when you were working in California?
Re:Quality of life (Score:1)
Re:Quality of life (Score:1)
You can't get fired for trying to form a union
No, they find some other reason to fire you