How much experience do most Indian programmers have? It seems to me that in ramping up from a few hundred to thosands of programmers over the past few years, most of these people must be fresh out of school... how much training do people need before they start producing reliable results?
"It seems to me that in ramping up from a few hundred to thosands of programmers over the past few years, most of these people must be fresh out of school"
And this was not the case here in the USA during the "Dot Com Boom"? I sense an invalid argument...
..the US produced the computer industry as it exists today, and were it not for the dot-com boom, the web as we know it today would not exist. The only reason so many untrained people over here were able to make so much money was because there was an amazing revolution going on. Poor investing aside, no one can argue that the US has not created the modern computing industry as it exists today, and we have years of experience going back to the days of the mainframes.
India, on the other hand, appears to have contributed precisely jack shit to all of this, and it's very understandable that they're going to want to want a piece of the pie now that they can just go buy a book and pirate a copy of windows XP and take advantage of the American computer revolution.
The US should implement protectionist policies immediately, much like those India is implementing to keep US programmers from competing with Indian workers for their own jobs. Considering it was the US' commitment to education and entrepreneurship that created this world of technology, we have every right to introduce legislation to stop corporate greed from giving the benefit to others.
New industry, same old arguments. Steelworkers said it, Detroit Auto said it, and now Techies are saying it.
Fact of the matter is, America isn't very good at keeping whats home-grown at home. It is good at pioneering new industries, however. The only difference is that IT has moved so fast that there hasn't been the generational drop like there was in past transitions; young qualified professionals are out of work, and they get airtime. No one wants to hear from old steel millers.
Yeah, and Unix, C, C++, Perl, ftp, Java, GNU, and just about everything else was developed in the USA. Your point?
Taking one example: C++ was invented by Bjarne Stroustrup, who is Danish. You, sir, are an idiot... ...C++ was developed at Bell Laboratories in the United States.
Disagreement to the parent aside, isn't it the greed of the US companies that are giving the jobs to India? The workers over there are happy to take the work they are offered and get what is considered decent pay there. The US companies are offering, it's not necessarily the Indians 'stealing' the jobs.
I think what the original poster was saying was that the technology economy was an American invention, that lack of measures to HEAVILY tax/tarrif outsourcing of science/engineering jobs related to techno
What is the source of greed? The American Corporation looking for a better bottom-line and competing in the American Free-Market Economy, or the Worker who wishes protectionist policies to ensure their role in the labour market does not change. ..
This "outsourcing" is also a key source of income for the people and families of India, who also need food, drinking water, healthcare, etc. If we continue to live in excess while the poorest nations are not given a hands-up, this will only lead to further cla
I will take the middle-ground on this issue. I work in I.T., and have seen the market collapse, nonetheless. Uncertainty lies ahead, and we must be willing to conquer these issues as workers, families, and corporations -- but protectionist legislation is not the answer.
I disagree. I am generally not in favor of protectionist policies. But when it comes to outsourcing knowledge jobs, I think we have a different situation on our hands.
This "outsourcing" is also a key source of income for the people a
We probably can't stop the trend, but there is the possibility of slowing it down. As you stated, the taxation policies might be the best route, with corporate tax breaks for hiring local technology workers and lower income taxes. These cannot be substantial breaks, as it might upset some WTO agreements. Your point on encouragement for students to pursue science and engineering is well taken. I know of many who simply pursue an arts degree, as the future for technical workers seems dismal.
I also believe that we should open up the H1b program BIG-TIME. The Bush administration has really gone protectionist with H1bs which has accelerated and confounded the outsourcing problem.
Under the Clinton administration, the philosophy was to bring the best brains in the world here and give them a chance to earn citizenship - an approach that both grew our home-tech-corridors and helped keep wages down at a time when hyper-wage-inflation was a real threat. I would muc
You may also want to examine how the US arrived in this position of leadership in the computer industry in the first place. That's right, the US innovated. The model you seem to be proposing is that there's an end to innovation, when you can just rest on your laurels and rely on information control to maintain your lead.
I think that's wrongheaded. Innovation, and being an innovator, is a continuous process. Closing off the borders risks losing the head start completely, because it decreases necessity,
You may also want to examine how the US arrived in this position of leadership in the computer industry in the first place. That's right, the US innovated. The model you seem to be proposing is that there's an end to innovation, when you can just rest on your laurels and rely on information control to maintain your lead.
I think that's wrongheaded. Innovation, and being an innovator, is a continuous process. Closing off the borders risks losing the head start completely, because it decreases necessity, w
"..the US produced the computer industry as it exists today, and were it not for the dot-com boom, the web as we know it today would not exist."
First, this statement has nothing to do with the subject, and is almost certainly a troll. Second, it represents a completely flawed US-centric view that that we "own" the Internet, and we "own" the right to a particular skill, and no one else should have it. For the most part, you are full of shit and have precisely the attitude that forces jobs to outsourcers.
Did he say anywhere in that post that we owned anything?
And i am dieing to here the explanation as to why that attitude forces jobs to outsource?
He was just simply interjecting that it is true the american dot com boom did shape the tech world. for better or worse.
hey whats that on your shoulder? ahh a chip i understand now.
But if your argument is that people in other countries should not attempt to capitalize on inventions in other countries, then surely the same should apply, that the US should not attempt to capitalize on inventions from outside the US? Send back all that fiber optic cable to Britain, then, and all those CDs back to Japan and Holland.
India, on the other hand, appears to have contributed precisely jack shit to all of this, and it's very understandable that they're going to want to want a piece of the pie now that they can just go buy a book and pirate a copy of windows XP and take advantage of the American computer revolution.
The computer was invented by a Brit [turing.org.uk] and a Hungarian [rit.edu].
Until those fscking American thiefs stole it, that is.
Thank you captain obvious. The point of this entire discussion is that we are being complicit in gutting our white-collar work-force. In other words, we are allowing them the opportunity to make use of those skills at our expense. Through protectionist legislation we have the power to stop that from happening, and I am arguing that we ought to exercise that power.
Yeah, except for the fact that Indians invented the number 0.
Do you really want to play the game of preventing those who arrived second from being allowed to compete?
Considering that it's the US that invested all of this money in creating an environment that made the computer revolution possible, it's foolish now to allow the greed of American companies to squander it. Sure, all knowledge is eventually interrelated, but what I'm saying is that we can either keep tech dollars here and strengthen the economy and government that we rely on for our lives, or we can pillage our tax revenue and our consumer economy to benefit people living in India for corporate profits. It
and were it not for the dot-com boom, the web as we know it today would not exist.
Oh no! The web as we know it wouldn't exist. Imagine a web without ads, popups, internet communities and all the other things that makes internetuse more stupidifying than watching TV. Sniff.
However, pure capitalism is a horrible thing. Like health care? Social security? Retirement? How about weekends? All of those things are contrary to capitalism, and corporations will be more than happy to slash all of those in the name of profits as soon as we let them.
Remember, corporations want to take us back to 1900, before all of that commie hippie bullshit started up. I'm not saying that they're evil or something, but capitalism cares about only one thing, and that is the profits of the guy on to
sieg heil, mein furhrer... jesus! Do you really think that way? Don't you think the computer revolution is a global thing? It benefits everyone around the world. By your thinking, the Brits should declare war on anyone who uses computers, as the first real computer was invented in the UK.
Your logic is horribly flawed, and only proves your xenophobia and insecurity.
As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.
Average experience? (Score:5, Interesting)
What's the diff? (Score:4, Insightful)
And this was not the case here in the USA during the "Dot Com Boom"? I sense an invalid argument...
Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:2, Insightful)
Fact of the matter is, America isn't very good at keeping whats home-grown at home. It is good at pioneering new industries, however. The only difference is that IT has moved so fast that there hasn't been the generational drop like there was in past transitions; young qualified professionals are out of work, and they get airtime. No one wants to hear from old steel millers.
The solution isn't to
Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:2)
Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:4, Insightful)
While there is a degree of truth in your argument, let's not forget, for instance, that HTML/HTTP was invented in Europe, as was Linux.
Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:2)
Yeah, and Unix, C, C++, Perl, ftp, Java, GNU, and just about everything else was developed in the USA. Your point?
Taking one example: C++ was invented by Bjarne Stroustrup, who is Danish. You, sir, are an idiot...
Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:1)
Taking one example: C++ was invented by Bjarne Stroustrup, who is Danish. You, sir, are an idiot...
Re: (Score:2)
Impending disaster for the U.S. (Score:2)
I think what the original poster was saying was that the technology economy was an American invention, that lack of measures to HEAVILY tax/tarrif outsourcing of science/engineering jobs related to techno
Re:Impending disaster for the U.S. (Score:1)
This "outsourcing" is also a key source of income for the people and families of India, who also need food, drinking water, healthcare, etc. If we continue to live in excess while the poorest nations are not given a hands-up, this will only lead to further cla
Re:Impending disaster for the U.S. (Score:3, Informative)
I disagree. I am generally not in favor of protectionist policies. But when it comes to outsourcing knowledge jobs, I think we have a different situation on our hands.
This "outsourcing" is also a key source of income for the people a
Re:Impending disaster for the U.S. (Score:1)
Another alte
Re:Impending disaster for the U.S. (Score:2)
I also believe that we should open up the H1b program BIG-TIME. The Bush administration has really gone protectionist with H1bs which has accelerated and confounded the outsourcing problem.
Under the Clinton administration, the philosophy was to bring the best brains in the world here and give them a chance to earn citizenship - an approach that both grew our home-tech-corridors and helped keep wages down at a time when hyper-wage-inflation was a real threat. I would muc
Re:Impending disaster for the U.S. (Score:2)
I think that's wrongheaded. Innovation, and being an innovator, is a continuous process. Closing off the borders risks losing the head start completely, because it decreases necessity,
Re:Impending disaster for the U.S. (Score:2)
Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:3, Interesting)
First, this statement has nothing to do with the subject, and is almost certainly a troll. Second, it represents a completely flawed US-centric view that that we "own" the Internet, and we "own" the right to a particular skill, and no one else should have it. For the most part, you are full of shit and have precisely the attitude that forces jobs to outsourcers.
Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:1)
Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:1)
But if your argument is that people in other countries should not attempt to capitalize on inventions in other countries, then surely the same should apply, that the US should not attempt to capitalize on inventions from outside the US? Send back all that fiber optic cable to Britain, then, and all those CDs back to Japan and Holland.
You can't have it both ways.
Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:2)
The computer was invented by a Brit [turing.org.uk] and a Hungarian [rit.edu].
Until those fscking American thiefs stole it, that is.
(
Thomas Miconi
Anybody can invent something... (Score:2)
Re:Anybody can invent something... (Score:2)
Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:1)
Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:2)
Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:1)
Oh no! The web as we know it wouldn't exist. Imagine a web without ads, popups, internet communities and all the other things that makes internetuse more stupidifying than watching TV. Sniff.
I agree with most of that (Score:2)
Remember, corporations want to take us back to 1900, before all of that commie hippie bullshit started up. I'm not saying that they're evil or something, but capitalism cares about only one thing, and that is the profits of the guy on to
Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:1)
Your logic is horribly flawed, and only proves your xenophobia and insecurity.