You can't please God the way Enoch did without some faith, because those who come to God must (minimally) believe that:
A) God exists, and
B) God is good to people who really look for him.
That's it. The "good news" is so simple that a child can understand it, and so deep that a philosopher can't.
As much as I respect Larry, I have one thing to say : "The Devil is in the details". "God exists" sounds so simple. It's not. Ethics are fundamentally different in the presence or absence of a God. In the absence, ethics are based around pragmatism and as such adaptible. In the presence, ethics are given to us. Look at history. Which case has proven the better approach? I'd rather God not existed, but if he does, I hope he has foregivness for me since I do in fact live by many of his rules - only out of pragmatism. I expect to burn in hell if there is such a thing, though.
As much as I respect Larry, I have one thing to say : "The Devil is in the details". "God exists" sounds so simple. It's not. Ethics are fundamentally different in the presence or absence of a God. In the absence, ethics are based around pragmatism and as such adaptible. In the presence, ethics are given to us. Look at history. Which case has proven the better approach? I'd rather God not existed, but if he does, I hope he has foregivness for me since I do in fact live by many of his rules - only out of pragmatism. I expect to burn in hell if there is such a thing, though.
Being a Christian myself this post is no doubt biased but since you brought up some points and questions I thought I would address them...
You might be interested in studying up on Christian theology since it addresses many of your points. It says God does indeed exist, and he will forgive you regardless of what you have done in the past. Morals (ethics) come from him but living by his rules is not a requirement as you could never "earn your way to heaven" like you would in other religions (Islam, Judaism). Once you are a Christian (and not just in title) you accept the holy spirit which guides you and helps you to avoid evil things. That is a lifelong process which is why many (true) Christians are not perfect...nobody is! And of course, many call theirselves Christians when they really aren't...giving all Christians a bad name. Also many non-Christians think Christianity is a rule(law)-based religion and God just wants to ruin your fun. In reality, it is nothing like that and God simply wants the best for you...nothing less.
Many times agnostics think that God should come down and fix everything, etc. but that doesn't happen. Christian theology states that we are in a fallen world, and due to the fact that we are given free will (ie freedom) God is not going to sit here and be a puppet master. When we die we are judged and that is it. If we believed and trusted in him we will live with him forever, and if we don't, we go to hell. It's not a hard theology to grasp. Furthermore we are told he is just and he will fix all things at the end of the age. So while the world may suck today, it will not be like that for all time.
Also just as an aside... If God exists, he will exist regardless of whether you believe in him or not. But whether you live in paradise or hell does directly depend on whether you believe in him or not. Really, what do you have to lose?
I guess I'm a bit confused... Since when was the whole point of Christianity getting into Heaven and avoiding Hell? If your view of religion is just about what happens "after death", then I submit that perhaps you're missing the point. Do you really think God made this whole world just to throw it away in a few thousand years after it starts getting interesting?
Not that there isn't any room for discussions of an afterlife, but my impression of Christianity from the Bible reading I've done seems to imply that Christianity is far more about the present world.
My theory is that most Christians look for God to do stuff in the real world and don't see it, so they assume that's because religion only matters for the afterlife. It's a defense mechanism that avoids admitting, "I must have misunderstood something about what God wants."
It's not. The point of Christianity is to accept Jesus as your personal saviour and Lord. This is the most important part -- Jesus will save you, and in doing so He's going to change the way you live your life. If you don't change, you don't believe -- it's that simple. Many people understand the saviour part -- but most forget the part that you have to accept His control over your life.
The point the original poster was trying to make is that your salvation is not dependant on performing good works -- it's dependant on accepting Jesus, and allowing Him to change your life.
Christianity is about a life change -- not a fire insurance policy.
Oh I get it now. That explains why so many Christians are unrepentant, selfish bastards who would no sooner help their fellow man than drink their own urine. They're waiting for Jesus to change them.
That's a pretty cool philosophy. Ignore all the teachings of your savior, live an evil life and wait for him to change it all for you. No need to put any effort in yourself (apart from giving money to that nice man on Sundays because Jesus wants you to).
Assuming that you're actually asking a question here and not just being a troll, I think the answer to the first part would be "yeah, in a sense". It says specifically in the Bible that we are "working out our faith", i.e., working towards a more perfect understanding of what our faith means and how to use it day to day. Would you expect a kid in kindergarten to be able to do the job of an engineer just because you gave them a textbook on differential equations? I doubt it. The kid would have to work to understand what's being taught, learn how to apply it, and gain some experience using it in the real world before he finally gets it right.
To continue the analogy, engineers still make mistakes, even after they've been on the job for 30 years. Christians are still humans. They make mistakes, too. And as far as unrepentant Christians go, I don't think you can actually call them Christians, in the real sense of the word. One of the cornerstones of Christian doctrine is repentance. Someone who rejects the concept of repentance is by definition, not a Christian.
A little cynicism goes a long way. Sometimes, a little too far, if you ask me.
However, I think you have a different idea of what Christianity is from this other joker. He says that Jesus will change your life, and makes no mention of you having to put in any kind of effort yourself. Apparently if you don't change then it's because you didn't believe in Jesus enough.
Kinda reminds me of that bit in Peter Pan where Tinkerbell will die if all the little children in the audience don't say that they believe in fairies.
I'm not trying to belittle Christians, but those kinds of arguments are just too weak to pass up.
joshki wrote:
It's not. The point of Christianity is to accept Jesus as your personal saviour and Lord. This is the most important part -- Jesus will save you, and in doing so He's going to change the way you live your life. If you don't change, you don't believe -- it's that simple. Many people understand the saviour part -- but most forget the part that you have to accept His control over your life.
The point the original poster was trying to make is that your salvation is not dependant on performing good works -- it's dependant on accepting Jesus, and allowing Him to change your life.
- - - - That's YOUR sect's interpretation of scripture.
I guess I'm a bit confused... Since when was the whole point of Christianity getting into Heaven and avoiding Hell? If your view of religion is just about what happens "after death", then I submit that perhaps you're missing the point. Do you really think God made this whole world just to throw it away in a few thousand years after it starts getting interesting?
No that was just the point I decided to discuss. Christianity is an entire package. That is why I said elsewhere on thsi topic that if you believe in the Lord and accept the holy spirit then He will slowly change you from the inside out. Thus its not that you aren't allowed to do stuff, but rather you do not desire to do stuff (ie immoral stuff).
Not that there isn't any room for discussions of an afterlife, but my impression of Christianity from the Bible reading I've done seems to imply that Christianity is far more about the present world.
Yes it is about both but more importantly what happens in the next world/life. This is why being a martyr in Christianity is not such a bad thing. Jesus spends a great deal of time talking about such things such as he is preparing a mansion for us and he will return and make all things new, etc. Of course being a Christian is all about living a livestyle pleasing to God. So you don't just sit around twidling your thumbs waiting to die...you live life to its fullest, but more importantly, live it as God intended (morally and spiritually).
My theory is that most Christians look for God to do stuff in the real world and don't see it, so they assume that's because religion only matters for the afterlife. It's a defense mechanism that avoids admitting, "I must have misunderstood something about what God wants."
This is very true. God always answers prayers, but sometime his answer is "no" or "not yet" and thats something that is hard for some Christians to accept. God is looking out for what is in our best interests, not our desires.
Since when was the whole point of Christianity getting into Heaven and avoiding Hell?
I used to be disconcerted that many Christians viewed their faith as nothing more than "death insurance." They would act as though they'd gotten a "ticket to Heaven" and were free to do their own thing without consquence. You can imagine (or I guess you can't) how your post blew me away! No afterlife in Christianity??
Jesus' whole life is about Heaven and Hell. In fact, His name is about them! Jesus actual Hebrew name, Yeshua, means "the Lord saves." Saves from what? Boredom? He saves from Hell by allowing us into Heaven in spite of our sin. Lots of prophecy throughout the OT is tied up in all of this. Heaven and Hell are integral parts of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, and especially the Gospels. The relevance of sin, salvation, the "Great Commission," the crucifixion, resurrection, sacrifices, the Lord's Prayer, the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus' second coming, election, grace, and prophecies are practically dependent upon the premise that Heaven and Hell exist. Not to mention the beloved 23rd Psalm and John 3:16. (I'm starting to wonder if I've been trolled.) What is all that talk in the Bible about eternal life for? There are hundreds of references to both eternal life and eternal death in the Bible. I did a search on my computer.:-) Jesus concludes a parable about the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 25 by saying, "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
my impression of Christianity from the Bible reading I've done seems to imply that Christianity is far more about the present world.
That's because you get only one earthly life to put your faith in Christ. When you die, your eternal fate is set forever.
The Bible talks more about this life than the afterlife because the Bible is our:
Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth
God tells us things on a need-to-know basis, and right now we don't need to know very much about the details of Heaven or Hell. We'll find out soon enough.
I have the simplest tastes. I am always satisfied with the best.
-- Oscar Wilde
Interesting point about Christianity (Score:5, Interesting)
As much as I respect Larry, I have one thing to say : "The Devil is in the details". "God exists" sounds so simple. It's not. Ethics are fundamentally different in the presence or absence of a God. In the absence, ethics are based around pragmatism and as such adaptible. In the presence, ethics are given to us. Look at history. Which case has proven the better approach? I'd rather God not existed, but if he does, I hope he has foregivness for me since I do in fact live by many of his rules - only out of pragmatism. I expect to burn in hell if there is such a thing, though.
Re:Interesting point about Christianity (Score:2)
Being a Christian myself this post is no doubt biased but since you brought up some points and questions I thought I would address them...
You might be interested in studying up on Christian theology since it addresses many of your points. It says God does indeed exist, and he will forgive you regardless of what you have done in the past. Morals (ethics) come from him but living by his rules is not a requirement as you could never "earn your way to heaven" like you would in other religions (Islam, Judaism). Once you are a Christian (and not just in title) you accept the holy spirit which guides you and helps you to avoid evil things. That is a lifelong process which is why many (true) Christians are not perfect...nobody is! And of course, many call theirselves Christians when they really aren't...giving all Christians a bad name. Also many non-Christians think Christianity is a rule(law)-based religion and God just wants to ruin your fun. In reality, it is nothing like that and God simply wants the best for you...nothing less.
Many times agnostics think that God should come down and fix everything, etc. but that doesn't happen. Christian theology states that we are in a fallen world, and due to the fact that we are given free will (ie freedom) God is not going to sit here and be a puppet master. When we die we are judged and that is it. If we believed and trusted in him we will live with him forever, and if we don't, we go to hell. It's not a hard theology to grasp. Furthermore we are told he is just and he will fix all things at the end of the age. So while the world may suck today, it will not be like that for all time.
Also just as an aside... If God exists, he will exist regardless of whether you believe in him or not. But whether you live in paradise or hell does directly depend on whether you believe in him or not. Really, what do you have to lose?
I guess I'm a bit confused... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not that there isn't any room for discussions of an afterlife, but my impression of Christianity from the Bible reading I've done seems to imply that Christianity is far more about the present world.
My theory is that most Christians look for God to do stuff in the real world and don't see it, so they assume that's because religion only matters for the afterlife. It's a defense mechanism that avoids admitting, "I must have misunderstood something about what God wants."
Re:I guess I'm a bit confused... (Score:4, Insightful)
The point the original poster was trying to make is that your salvation is not dependant on performing good works -- it's dependant on accepting Jesus, and allowing Him to change your life.
Christianity is about a life change -- not a fire insurance policy.
Re:I guess I'm a bit confused... (Score:1)
That's a pretty cool philosophy. Ignore all the teachings of your savior, live an evil life and wait for him to change it all for you. No need to put any effort in yourself (apart from giving money to that nice man on Sundays because Jesus wants you to).
Re:I guess I'm a bit confused... (Score:1)
Too scared about losing karma points so you post as an AC? Doesn't your god book mention anything about taking responsiblilty for your own actions.
Re:I guess I'm a bit confused... (Score:1)
To continue the analogy, engineers still make mistakes, even after they've been on the job for 30 years. Christians are still humans. They make mistakes, too. And as far as unrepentant Christians go, I don't think you can actually call them Christians, in the real sense of the word. One of the cornerstones of Christian doctrine is repentance. Someone who rejects the concept of repentance is by definition, not a Christian.
A little cynicism goes a long way. Sometimes, a little too far, if you ask me.
Re:I guess I'm a bit confused... (Score:1)
However, I think you have a different idea of what Christianity is from this other joker. He says that Jesus will change your life, and makes no mention of you having to put in any kind of effort yourself. Apparently if you don't change then it's because you didn't believe in Jesus enough.
Kinda reminds me of that bit in Peter Pan where Tinkerbell will die if all the little children in the audience don't say that they believe in fairies.
I'm not trying to belittle Christians, but those kinds of arguments are just too weak to pass up.
Re:I guess I'm a bit confused... (Score:2)
It's not. The point of Christianity is to accept Jesus as your personal saviour and Lord. This is the most important part -- Jesus will save you, and in doing so He's going to change the way you live your life. If you don't change, you don't believe -- it's that simple. Many people understand the saviour part -- but most forget the part that you have to accept His control over your life.
The point the original poster was trying to make is that your salvation is not dependant on performing good works -- it's dependant on accepting Jesus, and allowing Him to change your life.
- - - -
That's YOUR sect's interpretation of scripture.
Re:I guess I'm a bit confused... (Score:3, Insightful)
No that was just the point I decided to discuss. Christianity is an entire package. That is why I said elsewhere on thsi topic that if you believe in the Lord and accept the holy spirit then He will slowly change you from the inside out. Thus its not that you aren't allowed to do stuff, but rather you do not desire to do stuff (ie immoral stuff).
Not that there isn't any room for discussions of an afterlife, but my impression of Christianity from the Bible reading I've done seems to imply that Christianity is far more about the present world.
Yes it is about both but more importantly what happens in the next world/life. This is why being a martyr in Christianity is not such a bad thing. Jesus spends a great deal of time talking about such things such as he is preparing a mansion for us and he will return and make all things new, etc. Of course being a Christian is all about living a livestyle pleasing to God. So you don't just sit around twidling your thumbs waiting to die...you live life to its fullest, but more importantly, live it as God intended (morally and spiritually).
My theory is that most Christians look for God to do stuff in the real world and don't see it, so they assume that's because religion only matters for the afterlife. It's a defense mechanism that avoids admitting, "I must have misunderstood something about what God wants."
This is very true. God always answers prayers, but sometime his answer is "no" or "not yet" and thats something that is hard for some Christians to accept. God is looking out for what is in our best interests, not our desires.
Re:I guess I'm a bit confused... (Score:1)
I used to be disconcerted that many Christians viewed their faith as nothing more than "death insurance." They would act as though they'd gotten a "ticket to Heaven" and were free to do their own thing without consquence. You can imagine (or I guess you can't) how your post blew me away! No afterlife in Christianity??
Jesus' whole life is about Heaven and Hell. In fact, His name is about them! Jesus actual Hebrew name, Yeshua, means "the Lord saves." Saves from what? Boredom? He saves from Hell by allowing us into Heaven in spite of our sin. Lots of prophecy throughout the OT is tied up in all of this. Heaven and Hell are integral parts of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, and especially the Gospels. The relevance of sin, salvation, the "Great Commission," the crucifixion, resurrection, sacrifices, the Lord's Prayer, the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus' second coming, election, grace, and prophecies are practically dependent upon the premise that Heaven and Hell exist. Not to mention the beloved 23rd Psalm and John 3:16. (I'm starting to wonder if I've been trolled.) What is all that talk in the Bible about eternal life for? There are hundreds of references to both eternal life and eternal death in the Bible. I did a search on my computer. :-) Jesus concludes a parable about the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 25 by saying, "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
my impression of Christianity from the Bible reading I've done seems to imply that Christianity is far more about the present world.
That's because you get only one earthly life to put your faith in Christ. When you die, your eternal fate is set forever.
The Bible talks more about this life than the afterlife because the Bible is our:
Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth
God tells us things on a need-to-know basis, and right now we don't need to know very much about the details of Heaven or Hell. We'll find out soon enough.