The one question I have never been able to get a straight answer on. What field should the millions of displaced American IT workers get trained in?
It is always sais that people should be responsbile and learn new skills and train in a new field. When the farm economy shifted to manufacturing, people learned factory work. When manufacturing started to be offshored people were advised to get into IT. What field should people start to train in? Bush talks about training displaced workers, but I haven't heard anything about what their supposed to train in. What is the next new economy, retail?
Nursing pays well. Not get-a-new-porsche well, but $30-40 an hour for a male nurse in night shifts is a regular pay.
With baby boomers nearing their middle age and taxpayers voluntarily covering Medicaid and other programs that are heavily abused, nursing is not a bad field to get into. There will always be people sick and dying, so market is there.
And you thought you got screwed over as a developer?
Nurses get all the shit, all the repsonsibility, and none of the respect. The hospitals try to keep the number of RNs to a minimum, giving nurses up to 15 patients at a time.
My wife is an RN, and she's told me horror stories about this sort of shit.
If the hospitals could outsource nursing care, they would. Actually, they do. It's called "registry nurses".
A friend of mine tried working for a registry. The hospitals in the area would call up for 15+ nurses just to make sure they had enough to cover the shifts of nurses who called in. When the hired employees showed up for their shifts, the registry nurses were told to leave. No guarantee of work or anything. Sounds even worse working for a registry than it is to work for one hospital.
I don't know if my friend is still working for a registry. I know she started looking to get a regular job as soon as she realized how messed up the system was. I don't see how registrys can keep treating their nurses that way and hope to retain employees.
The situation with nurses seems ripe for unionizing--high demand for workers and poor treatment of employees.
The parent here is a fool lost in the smokescreen the "Outsourcing" crowd puts out. Nurses don't earn that kind of money in the first place except in extremely high priced regions like San Francisco. Second the industry is outsourcing. You see I am an RN who left the profession because of outsourcing and the criminally bad management of the industry. I retrained as Software Engineer.
The "Shortage" of Nurses is entirely smoke and mirrors put out to justify what currently is UNLIMITED H-2 visas being issued by the BICS for NURSES. They even took 3 years as work in any medical field as equal to 1 year of College for RN. Thus you could have someone soon caring for you who knows nothing about nursing except cleaning beds. But Ignorant fools like the parent of this post will not learn until it is they themselves who get no care or are hurt. By then they will be too weak and too broke to be able to fuss.
I personally watched in Nashville Tn while the heads of Columbia HCA were arrested for RICO Violations in a "No Knock Raid" on their HQ near Centennial Park. I have seen their actions first hand and know how illegal they are. The claims of Nursing Shortages and High Wages are put out by people those kind of people.
That's just like in the Grapes of Wrath where all the farmers went to California to pick fruit during the great depression and found that the promises they were getting in Oaklahoma were just to drive down the cost of labour for the fruit growers. Facinating that this still goes on ~75 years later, of course now I suppose people who do this get arrested for RICO violations...if they are caught.
The RICO charges were due to their shaking down Medicare and Medicaid patients maxing their benefits etc largly associated with Home Health but I assume in Hospital as well. They busted any worthwhile Home Health services in the USA!
If you look at the personality types which are well suited to nursing, they are almost the exact opposite of those well suited to engineering. In myers-briggs terminology, nursing is usually for ESFJ (extroverted, sensing, feeling, and judgemental) types, and engineering is for INTP (introverted, intuitive, thinking, and perceiving) types... So asking an engineer to become a nurse is very much like asking them to change the very nature of who they are. It won't work.
I see. So individuals who typically have poor "people" skills, should go from careers in which they rarely deal with others, into a field in which they regularly deal with sick, whiney, helpless people all day?
For me, I've found that providing IT SERVICES to local Philaldelphia-area merchants and lawyers has been a great business. Please move here and take some of the overload off my hands. You will be expected to be hands-on, professional, and fluent in the local language. Provided India can't helicopter in workers from international waters, these IT service jobs should remain secure.
Since you commented as a AC, I can't reply to you directly... but I am looking for some moonlighting jobs, and live about 100 meters outside Philly... If you are looking for someone to pick up some slack I would be interested.
Anything in the service arena. With the huge savings my company received from offshoring development, I finally got that new lexus I wanted. What I'm noticing, is that the lack of quality amoung local car wash workers is really terrible. I think we could retain some of the VB code monkeys into excellent window washers and wipe-down workers. In fact I think we should return to the days of the full-service gas station. It annoys me to have to keep getting out of my big SUV and fill it with permium gas. There should be people who do that for us.
a blonde is trying to earn some money to go visit her parents so she decides to do some odd jobs. she goes up to this one expensive-looking house and asks if there's anything she can do for some cash. the owner says "y'know, you could paint my porch. here's a hundred to get the stuff you need and i'll give you the rest later."
2 hours later she knocks on his door and says "all done! but i think you should know that it's not a porch. it's a ferrari!"
Are there actually that few [mcall.com] full-serve gas stations in the US?
Here in Canada, (Ontario at least) I'd say there are about a 50/50 split of full-serve/self-serve gas stations. Generally, the full-serve stations are.2 to.7 cents per litre more expensive.
all of hte bluebloods want you to be their servants and America to be their own large private plantation over which they exercise absolute control
kerry and bush are on the same team, but go ahead and whine about the symptoms some more, this is/. after all, capital of self-pity in the digital world
As the poster above said, nursing and healthcare are hard to outsource. Research and development is most likely secure at least for the time being but there aren't that many corporations that do bona fide long-run research (Intel, IBM and Du Pont come to mind). Might not be everybody's cup of tea: can get pretty hard to get in and even harder to stay in.
Don't recommend research. The next outsourcing wave will be materials research, genetics research, pharmaceutical research, etc, as profits from the current American researchers' labor are used to build research facilities overseas.
It's "free" to import a pharmaceutical formula, plastics formula and process, or genetic sequence.
Robots will operate the plants which produce these products. I suggest getting into robot repair and maintenance, or design. Robotics will be produced in the States simply because
Business and management. IT gets outsourced because, well, it's not that hard a skill compared to other professional degrees. If you want to make even $50K/y you had better convince your employer you are actually worth that much. And generally that means IT isn't enough. Have you considered an MBA?
Are you actually arguing that most positions help by MBA's require more knowledge than most software developing positions?
I have heard a couple of items on NPR's nes shows about how CFO's might be the next group to be outsourced... it would be a funny turn of the tables...
I've heard MBA students spouting something about how all the "work" will be outsourced and people in the US will just "manage" everything. I fail to see how this is a viable model for a country. The foreigners will learn management too, and then those US managers that don't know anything about day to day operations in Singapore will be next to go. How can anyone claim a nation of upper managers is viable with a straight face?
How can anyone claim a nation of upper managers is viable with a straight face?
Easy.
It's a lie!
When the system DOES collapse and reduce the average American to pre-WWI living standards.. do you think these advocates will STAY in the US out of a sense of civic duty? Not the ones who have the economic power to move, no fucking way.
These yellow-bellied mercenary traitors will bail for another country. I'll bet China could "win" by promising they never have to pay taxes, ever.
I could be horribly mistaken but isn't this kind of what England turned into?
IANAE, but I always had the impression that England had a strong class split with lots of white collar middle management types and accountants running old investments and lots of low wage blue collar typles with not much in the middle.
This isn't based off much fact, so would an Englishman care to comment?
That's true. And when the middle managers are outsourced to Singapore then it will be just the upper managers in the US. But what do they really know? All their middle managers are now in Singapore. So the Board will fire the US upper managers and hire replacements in Singapore. But the CEO won't have day-to-day interactions with most of the company at that point. So the CEO will be placed on the Board and all the managment will be from Singapore. Only the Board and most of the stockholders will be in the US.
20 years later: All the major US IT companies are entirely managed from outsource companies, with only Board and stockholders in the US.
Then all the rich IT workers in Singapore will buy up the companies in hostile takeovers as aging American stockholders liquidate at a bargain, kick out the Board, install their fellows in leadership...and we will have finally exported wholesale a trillion+ dollar industry in record time. The Roman Empire took several hundred years to pull that off.
And this is...a good thing? Looks like giving away the farm. Well at least the Singaporians won't contribute to the Republican Party so then maybe we'll elect...oh wait, I suppose they will contribute illegally, or by proxy. Never mind. We really have given away the farm.
I've heard MBA students spouting something about how all the "work" will be outsourced and people in the US will just "manage" everything. I fail to see how this is a viable model for a country.
Very good point. Lee Iacocca mentions this sentiment in his autobiography. He was a mechanical engineering graduate (from Lehigh IIRC) and after his first day on the job (designing a clutch spring for Ford) he decided he didn't like dealing with objects. Apparently it took him that long to realize that an enginee
I've heard MBA students spouting something about how all the "work" will be outsourced and people in the US will just "manage" everything. I fail to see how this is a viable model for a country. The foreigners will learn management too, and then those US managers that don't know anything about day to day operations in Singapore will be next to go. How can anyone claim a nation of upper managers is viable with a straight face?
First, it's truly not "millions" of jobs that we are talking about here. It's
Why, biotech, of course. Note that the USA is entering a restricted regime for biotesting (at least as far as fetal tissue is concerned), and oh yeah, you'll need a bio-heavy degree. Maybe a Master's.
Of course, anything done in biotech can be outsourced almost as easily as computech. Get in early to get the maximum 8-year-career out of your 4- or 6-year degree.
(For those globalism-loving dittoheads, I was being sarcastic. Increasing education is only a means of entering a more outsourceable and of
"You're {too|over}qualified" is a just modern AmeriSpeak for saying "you're too expensive". I've been there many times, and I've no degree at all. I'm sure many of the men in their 40s and 50s in IT have seen the same thing.
"You're {too|over}qualified" is a just modern AmeriSpeak for saying "you're too expensive". I've been there many times, and I've no degree at all. I'm sure many of the men in their 40s and 50s in IT have seen the same thing.
It's sickening how they lie to you from multiple fronts... At the interview, it's "sorry, you're too qualified for this job." Then, at the press conference, it's "there aren't enough well-educated skilled workers in America, so we must outsource."
Anecdote : I know one guy, at my local gun club, who lost his job to 2 people in India and 1 in Mexico. It was literally cheaper to hire 3 people than to keep paying him to do this particular IT job. He had a life long interest in automotive electrical systems and decided to pursue a 2 year degree from a local community college. His reasoning : 1) You can't outsource car repair to India, 2) There is high demand for a person with skills in this area, 3) He really loves doing it. I also read another article recently about demand for automotive technicians being quite high and supply being quite low. The article suggested that this situation was the result of a generation of parents not wanting their kids to grow up to become "grease monkeys". These parents did not realize that automotive technicians are really computer technicians (as most modern vehicles are computer controlled) and can earn a comparable salary to an I/T person.
There are many great good paying careers outside of I/T. If you think that your days as an I/T person are over then it would be worth it to look around.
Anyone who says that auto techs are really computer techs is just blowing smoke. The majority of repairs that I've seen come into shops are because the person who owns the vehicle just put fuel in it and drove the piss out of it. Most of the computer stuff is either "it works" or "a sensor isn't working". Hell, the diagnostic computer you hook to the car to read the computer will usually suggesst what needs to be replaced.
The following is a true story:
Guy gets his current model year Toyota 4Runner with 60k miles up to a shop, and says he wants a new engine. The mechanic looks at him like he's grown a third head, and asks who told him that he needed a new engine. The customer refers the mechanic to the Toyota dealer.
Mechaic calls the dealer and starts trying to figure out what exactly happened. Dealer mechaic says that due to a lack of maitenence, the warranty won't cover it.
Mechaic talks to the customer. Apparently, the customer *NEVER CHANGED THE OIL* in the vehicle. Removing the oil pan drain plug confirmed this, as the oil was mostly gelatonous (sp?) black sludge. It's kind of hard for a regular oil pump to move stuff the consistancy of jello.
Uh - most people don't commute 80 miles to and from work 7 days a week. Sales people might put that mileage if they travel A LOT over a huge coverage area. Usually you have to drive at highways speeds to put in that kind of mileage in a year.
Think about it - you're averaging 7 miles/hour 24 hours a day. If you only drive 8 hours a day you're averaging 21mph, and if you only drive 5 days out of the week you're averaging about 30mph during business hours. You can't drive local roads and average 30mph unl
Actually, it really isn't as hard as you think to put that kind of mileage on a car. When I was going to a JC full time, and living at home so I could afford to do so, my commute was about 60 miles. That's 120 miles round trip, which I got to do 5 days a week since I was taking a bunch of lab classes (Physics, Chemistry, etc). That only took up 2-3 hours of my day, depending on traffic.
Just about everyone I know has been in a similar situation at one time in their lives. Yeah, 60k miles in a year is a litt
I have to say that if the guy enjoys his work he should be doing it. I have worked in three fields and can safely tell you that you need to find the field that fits you not the one that might allow you to make the max income. I have worked in construction while I enjoy the work I enjoy working with computers more (Consulting Network Arch) and never enjoyed working retain at a local amusement park. I have seen people that dislike there jobs and most often there performnce shows it.
"But it's still a question wether or not this will in the long term reduce the standard of living of the US to make it more in parity with other contries..."
No, that's not how it works. Our standard of living is set by how much we get. Trading with another country can't reduce our ability to get stuff, only increase it (we still retain the ability to make more stuff by employing the unemployed).
If you want to worry about something decreasing our standard of living, worry about something that will *decre
I just had to help my friend Elaine with this very issue.
You see, she's was having touble with her boyfriend, Art Vandelay. He's an importer/exporter. The trouble was, Art was thinking of forgetting the importing and just focusing in on the exporting. This was a problem because Elaine figured, "why not do both?".
In case you were wondering Art exports Chips - mostly potato (and some corn) and imports diapers.
What mechanics really need to be today is electricians. Luckily they're only working with AC and so the whole thing is really amazingly simple. I mean compare the schematic to a car with the schematic for the tape deck, let alone a CD player. Hell most amps of any value have a more complicated diagram than even a really complex car.
Now obviously a car contains all those things but they're not service items and if you have Mitchell manuals or Alldata then generally fixing the car of today primarily require
These parents did not realize that automotive technicians are really computer technicians (as most modern vehicles are computer controlled)
Not quite... At least with chrysler, the computers are black boxed, the tech plugs a cable in, sends the data off to detroit and the diagnosis is returned. This was discussed briefly on/. in the last couple months (IIRC, it was GM not releasing service codes) and is done to keep a rogue tech from starting his own shop somewhere, keeping the service codes in the deal
Odd, from the looks of things in the US, an ecomony based on "oil and cheap foreign labor" seems to be doing pretty well. Of course your statement was a vast simplification with the obvious "I hate America" overtones, but whatever.
I'll give you the quick-simple-dirty rundown on why cheap foreign labor helps us out, even if we aren't replacing those jobs "with *higher value* jobs." Its actually quite simple when you understand some basic ecomonics: Cheaper labor = lower consumer prices = more purchasing
"These parents did not realize that automotive technicians are really computer technicians (as most modern vehicles are computer controlled) and can earn a comparable salary to an I/T person. There are many great good paying careers outside of I/T. If you think that your days as an I/T person are over then it would be worth it to look around."
Just curious...what is the 'comparable' salary an average auto mechanic earns? I didn't know they were in the $80-$90K region??
You covered most of what I was going to say but let me elaborate a bit.
Most economists/capitalists used to say that the market will sort this sort of thing out. Their highly simplified models of humans tell them that when labor markets shift and jobs go overseas, unemployed workers can simply retrain. However real people aren't always retrainable. Sometimes the 52 year old factory worker can't go out and learn something new. Also, most jobs with a similar skillset might become filled rather quickly. For instance, many people suggest unemployed IT workers should start a local IT support business. That may work for a while, but soon that market is saturated.
I think in the end there is a real unavoidable cost for outsourcing and it would be great to hear an economist admit it instead of simply glossing over it with tales of the invisible hand. Then we can consider what measures society/government can take to bridge the gap between economic theory and reality.
I'm not against outsourcing, however I think there needs to be a great deal of focus on retraining, extending unemployment compensation, incentives for early retirement... whatever a more detailed study than I'm willing to undertake would prove effective in helping the newly unemployed.
What has happened historically is the rich get richer, the upper class, middle class and poor get poorer. Everyone looks at the rich as an example that the American dream actually works. The government (in the pocket of the rich) tells us that the rich need tax breaks too and proceed to give the rich massive flexibility to screw the average worker. The constitution is "reworked" and "re-interpreted" to fit the definition that suits the rich. The average perso
Thank you! I couldn't have asked for a better response.
You post shows hints of the 'economist' attitude I was complaining about in the parent post. You hint that most laid-off workers unable to learn new skills are simply lazy('unwilling'). However it seems that any skill worth learning is going to take a significant investment of time and money. If it didn't, there probably would already be an abundance of trained workers in that field.
Really what I'm getting at is that the process of retraining, relo
You got it!!!! Anyone who supports outsourcing is inherently anti-war because when the jobs/tax base moves over-seas then the funding for the war machine falls apart. Over 50% of the federal spending, ya know?
Oh yeah, lots of people seem to be disabled and other such things that put them on government handout programs. That'll probably be a new career for lots of people. And, as well, I have at least a few beggars a day here in 'frisco try to sell me on giving my fleeting salary to them... so probably sales will increase, door-to-door sales, and maybe flea markets. After this, companies would have to drop their prices to compete with the unemployed who are working on the side. The only gotcha is the high property
The one question I have never been able to get a straight answer on. What field should the millions of displaced American IT workers get trained in?
Well, as we move to a pure service economy, there will be two classes of people: Those who do service work and those who have capital. Service work, by its nature, cannot be outsourced. Of course, service work generally pays much less than the white collar jobs now being outsourced.
Outsourcing is a huge boon to those who have capital. To the rest of us,
Republican, Democrat, Independent or alien... you've got to check out this movie [fuckitall.com]. It's posted in Windows Media, Quicktime and RealVideo. It's one heck of a funny editing job.
Bush talks about training displaced workers, but I haven't heard anything about what their supposed to train in.
John Kerry also talks about that if he becomes President, he's going to create 10 million jobs for the 8 million people that are currently unemployed. I have some questions for Senator Kerry:
Who are these other 2 million people that you intend to create jobs for?
How much more in taxes will I have to pay to have the government creating jobs?
The way I look at Govt. is that it's supposed to maintain the status quo. That means kids goto school, sick goto doctors and people drive on highways [without holes the size of beachballs], etc, etc, etc.
So I'd say the govt should promote job growth [e.g. lowering taxes or giving grants or simply being ameniable to business] while not compromising the status quo.
The systematic selection of troublesome individuals, their removal from their community, and the necessary legal and moral stategies for justifing the selection and elimination of this individual.
With the population rapidly expanding at a far faster rate than ability of current political and economic systems to absorb these new young people, the death industry will be the fastest growing new industry of the twenty-first century.
There will be many new opportunities for lawyers to devise legal justification for murder, new openings for religious leaders to develop theologies endowing God's grace on murder (built opon the initial explorations in this field by Wahabi'ists of Saudi Arabia to justify the mass murder of Americans and Israelis through terrorism), new positions for technicians to design and maintain the machines of murder, and scientific and academic positions for modifying the crude 20th century weapons of mass destruction into the focused depopulation engines of tomorrow.
If you find yourself bothered by the reminants of morality and conscience when transistioning to your new career, you'll find the recent development of powerful psychoactive drugs designed to neutralize this area of brain chemistry most helpful.
(built opon the initial explorations in this field by Wahabi'ists of Saudi Arabia to justify the mass murder of Americans and Israelis through terrorism)
This part was totally unnessecary, and seriously detracted from an otherwise very funny post. Do you seriously think the radical muslims of the 20th century invented that concept? Have you never heard of the Crusades? I'm not saying the popes of the middle ages invented it either, but the modern islamic fundamentalists haven't come up with anything new, e
MILLIONS? Where did you get that number? Millions of IT workers no longer in the industry, due to jobs that got shipped overseas.
I'd say most IT jobs lost are due to the dot-com boom crash. There are far less than a million IT professionals in India doing outsourced work.
It seems like everyone doesn't have their ideal job in IT says that their job went to India. That'd require probably 10x more IT workers in India than there are.
What field should the millions of displaced American IT workers get trained in?
Pyramid Schemes. I will be happy to train you in the lucrative field of scamming people out of their money for $2000 + 10% of what you eventually collect from the trainees you go out and recruit for yourself (and 10% of your 10% take from them, and so on and so on...) If you are at a loss as to who to recruit, start with everybody you've ever known. Once they stop talking to you and begin to specifically dis-invite you from parties, turn to spam. Bothering people in coffee shops is good, too. It can't fail!!!11!1!
Or you could teach English in Japan. It hardly pays anything, and the hours are insane, but rumor has it that American men are considered very sexy over there... even the geeky ones! It's a nerd paradise, where grown-ups play video games, everybody has cell phones, and there's no shame in loving bad J-pop music and anime! Woo-hoo!
Or you could just stay in the IT industry and wait another month or two. Seriously now, the company I work at is already hiring a bunch of new people, and I hear from the people on my "job network" that the situation is similar all over the place right now.
The man behind the website Acts of Gord [actsofgord.com] (stories of a video game retail/rental store) has done this, and talks about it in his forum [2y.net]
The most rational set of questions to ask start with the most imporant ones to Investors.
[1] How many dollars of dividends has your company been able to pay to their shareholders as a result of "Outsourcing?"
[2] How much has your compensation risen including all factors since you began "Outsourcing?"
[3] How many dollars of payroll did you save as a result of "Outsourcing?" Be sure to include any Executive Raises as countervailing factors.
[4] Have you had any of your Intellectual Capital Stolen as a result of "Outsourcing." This is probably the biggest and worst part but it never gets talk.
[5] What Liability does my company incurr if data handled in "Outsourced" facilities is diverted to ILLEGAL Purposes such as Identity theft?
[6] What legal devices do we have to deal with employees who misuse data we "Outsource" the processing and service of.
[7] If the data or programming serviced is "Outsourced" what does it do to National Security. This is a common problem with Defense Contractors now. Most outsourcing functionally becomes Industrial Spying for the company Hired to service in the other country.
[8] Does outsourcing this service cause the development of competition which may destroy the operation?
After the issues of Company profitablity are discussed then get down to the other issues.
[1] Are you Receiving assistance to be in business from State or Local Governments such as Industrial Development Bonds etc?
[2] Do you meet the US EEOC requirements in the employement of all of the Outsourced employees? (Age Sex etc discrimination) Most Outsourcing actually is a masquerade for some form of racism or sexism.
[3] Do you deal with the US Government directly or as a subcontractor? If so how do you expect the government to be able to pay your contract if everyone avoids paying US Taxes by "Outsourcing"?
[4] Do you expect the United States Government to protect your operations using if need be Military Forces to make sure your trade is safe? If so how do you expect to have it paid for when you avoid paying the taxes which support it by "Outsourcing?"
[5] Can you point to any nation which has benefitted by lowering wages and reducing its standard of living?
[6] Do you like trading in the lucrative market in the USA? If so how do you think that it will remain lucrative with you and others "Outsourcing."
[7] Are you as an American Incorporated Company benefiting by US Laws, Currency and infrastructure? If so how do you expect this to be maintained if you continue "Outsourcing."
Then you can come down to the issues such as the effects on Citizens generally. These include:
[1] Do you believe that United States Citizens have any rights in their own land that arise from Citizenship? If so what are they? If so how do your actions affect these rights?
[2] What value do you believe should be placed on loyalty to your fellow countrymen?
[3] How important is the USA to world safety and prosperity with regards to the cost of lives and treasure from US Taxpayers taken to pay for these actions and conditions?
The whole set of issues here address the matter indirectly but they completely attack the reasoning behind the "Outsourcing" game.
The redistribution of wealth across the world will only create a problem. Countries with too much money, operating under different leadership and laws will attempt to exert themselves in the name of well-being for their citizens. When the US no longer has the tax-base to support 300 billion a year in defense spending, then the world is going to be a very dangerous place. Combine this fact with the ever growing oild hunger for countries outside of the US that don't follow our same laws around pollution a
Consider what wealth has done to Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia. They have created a worldwide terrorist crisis based on a thousand-year old fantasy of world domination.
Are you sure you want to live under a world dominant India/China/OPEC axis? Do you think they will promulgate civil or human rights? Would they have done better in Kosovo or even Rwanda? Want to bet on women's rights? Think the UN is too corrupt now?
Consider what wealth did to Britain and the USA. They have created a worldwide terrorist crisis as a result of a thousand-year old fantasy of world domination. The US is a personal danger to me while it invades countries for little more reason than settling daddy's scores and ensuring oil and rebuilding contracts for republican cronies, all the while encouraging the hatred of that country's inhabitants against the western world.
But more seriously, do you think that civil or human rights were respected mor
Become a plumber. At least over here, with the government now aiming to get 50% of all school leavers earning a 'University' degree, there's a near-catastrophic lack of manually skilled people. Here's a paraphrased quote from a 'Daily Telegraph' letter of some six months back:
Man rings plumber and asks when he can attend for urgent repairs.
"Well, I could be there in around four or five days depending"
"How much do you charge?"
"80 pounds an hour"
"WHAT THE F*CK!! I'm a lawyer and I can't charge fees like
Both are reasonably well paid jobs, and the latter will be in demand in 10 to 20 years as the 'baby boomers' depart this mortal coil. Only half in jest.
Disobedience: The silver lining to the cloud of servitude.
-- Ambrose Bierce
What field next (Score:5, Interesting)
It is always sais that people should be responsbile and learn new skills and train in a new field. When the farm economy shifted to manufacturing, people learned factory work. When manufacturing started to be offshored people were advised to get into IT. What field should people start to train in? Bush talks about training displaced workers, but I haven't heard anything about what their supposed to train in. What is the next new economy, retail?
Re:What field next (Score:2, Insightful)
Nursing pays well. Not get-a-new-porsche well, but $30-40 an hour for a male nurse in night shifts is a regular pay.
With baby boomers nearing their middle age and taxpayers voluntarily covering Medicaid and other programs that are heavily abused, nursing is not a bad field to get into. There will always be people sick and dying, so market is there.
Re:What field next (Score:5, Insightful)
Nurses get all the shit, all the repsonsibility, and none of the respect. The hospitals try to keep the number of RNs to a minimum, giving nurses up to 15 patients at a time.
My wife is an RN, and she's told me horror stories about this sort of shit.
If the hospitals could outsource nursing care, they would. Actually, they do. It's called "registry nurses".
Re:What field next (Score:1)
Re:What field next (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know if my friend is still working for a registry. I know she started looking to get a regular job as soon as she realized how messed up the system was. I don't see how registrys can keep treating their nurses that way and hope to retain employees.
The situation with nurses seems ripe for unionizing--high demand for workers and poor treatment of employees.
Re:What field next (Score:1)
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Re:What field next (Score:5, Interesting)
The parent here is a fool lost in the smokescreen the "Outsourcing" crowd puts out. Nurses don't earn that kind of money in the first place except in extremely high priced regions like San Francisco. Second the industry is outsourcing. You see I am an RN who left the profession because of outsourcing and the criminally bad management of the industry. I retrained as Software Engineer.
The "Shortage" of Nurses is entirely smoke and mirrors put out to justify what currently is UNLIMITED H-2 visas being issued by the BICS for NURSES. They even took 3 years as work in any medical field as equal to 1 year of College for RN. Thus you could have someone soon caring for you who knows nothing about nursing except cleaning beds. But Ignorant fools like the parent of this post will not learn until it is they themselves who get no care or are hurt. By then they will be too weak and too broke to be able to fuss.I personally watched in Nashville Tn while the heads of Columbia HCA were arrested for RICO Violations in a "No Knock Raid" on their HQ near Centennial Park. I have seen their actions first hand and know how illegal they are. The claims of Nursing Shortages and High Wages are put out by people those kind of people.
Re:What field next (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What field next (Score:2)
The RICO charges were due to their shaking down Medicare and Medicaid patients maxing their benefits etc largly associated with Home Health but I assume in Hospital as well. They busted any worthwhile Home Health services in the USA!
Re:What field next (Score:1)
Faz
Re:What field next (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What field next (Score:2, Insightful)
Right.
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Re:What field next (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Re:What field next (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Move to Oregon.
Re: (Score:1)
Re:What field next (Score:2)
[gets steel wool]
Re:What field next (Score:2)
2 hours later she knocks on his door and says "all done! but i think you should know that it's not a porch. it's a ferrari!"
OT: full service? (Score:2)
Here in Canada, (Ontario at least) I'd say there are about a 50/50 split of full-serve/self-serve gas stations. Generally, the full-serve stations are .2 to .7 cents per litre more expensive.
Re:OT: full service? (Score:1)
wow this is exactly what Bush Co wants too bad (Score:2)
all of hte bluebloods want you to be their servants and America to be their own large private plantation over which they exercise absolute control
kerry and bush are on the same team, but go ahead and whine about the symptoms some more, this is
Re:What field next (Score:4, Funny)
Or maybe just fertilizer.
Re:What field next (Score:1)
Don't be too sure about research being safe! (Score:1)
Re:What field next (Score:2)
It's "free" to import a pharmaceutical formula, plastics formula and process, or genetic sequence.
Robots will operate the plants which produce these products. I suggest getting into robot repair and maintenance, or design. Robotics will be produced in the States simply because
Re:What field next (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What field next (Score:2)
I have heard a couple of items on NPR's nes shows about how CFO's might be the next group to be outsourced... it would be a funny turn of the tables...
How can a nation exist with only management? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:How can a nation exist with only management? (Score:1, Insightful)
Easy.
It's a lie!
When the system DOES collapse and reduce the average American to pre-WWI living standards.. do you think these advocates will STAY in the US out of a sense of civic duty? Not the ones who have the economic power to move, no fucking way.
These yellow-bellied mercenary traitors will bail for another country. I'll bet China could "win" by promising they never have to pay taxes, ever.
Sound unfair? Well, so are Be
Re:How can a nation exist with only management? (Score:1)
IANAE, but I always had the impression that England had a strong class split with lots of white collar middle management types and accountants running old investments and lots of low wage blue collar typles with not much in the middle.
This isn't based off much fact, so would an Englishman care to comment?
Re:How can a nation exist with only management? (Score:4, Insightful)
20 years later: All the major US IT companies are entirely managed from outsource companies, with only Board and stockholders in the US.
Then all the rich IT workers in Singapore will buy up the companies in hostile takeovers as aging American stockholders liquidate at a bargain, kick out the Board, install their fellows in leadership...and we will have finally exported wholesale a trillion+ dollar industry in record time. The Roman Empire took several hundred years to pull that off.
And this is...a good thing? Looks like giving away the farm. Well at least the Singaporians won't contribute to the Republican Party so then maybe we'll elect...oh wait, I suppose they will contribute illegally, or by proxy. Never mind. We really have given away the farm.
Re:How can a nation exist with only management? (Score:2)
Re:How can a nation exist with only management? (Score:2)
nice one. Saint Adams knew the truth all along, didn't he?
Re:How can a nation exist with only management? (Score:2)
I've heard MBA students spouting something about how all the "work" will be outsourced and people in the US will just "manage" everything. I fail to see how this is a viable model for a country.
Very good point. Lee Iacocca mentions this sentiment in his autobiography. He was a mechanical engineering graduate (from Lehigh IIRC) and after his first day on the job (designing a clutch spring for Ford) he decided he didn't like dealing with objects. Apparently it took him that long to realize that an enginee
Re:How can a nation exist with only management? (Score:3, Insightful)
First, it's truly not "millions" of jobs that we are talking about here. It's
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Of course, anything done in biotech can be outsourced almost as easily as computech. Get in early to get the maximum 8-year-career out of your 4- or 6-year degree.
(For those globalism-loving dittoheads, I was being sarcastic. Increasing education is only a means of entering a more outsourceable and of
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Re:What field next (Score:2)
It's sickening how they lie to you from multiple fronts... At the interview, it's "sorry, you're too qualified for this job." Then, at the press conference, it's "there aren't enough well-educated skilled workers in America, so we must outsource."
All they ever mean is "there aren't
Re:What field next (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What field next (Score:4, Funny)
The following is a true story:
Guy gets his current model year Toyota 4Runner with 60k miles up to a shop, and says he wants a new engine. The mechanic looks at him like he's grown a third head, and asks who told him that he needed a new engine. The customer refers the mechanic to the Toyota dealer.
Mechaic calls the dealer and starts trying to figure out what exactly happened. Dealer mechaic says that due to a lack of maitenence, the warranty won't cover it.
Mechaic talks to the customer. Apparently, the customer *NEVER CHANGED THE OIL* in the vehicle. Removing the oil pan drain plug confirmed this, as the oil was mostly gelatonous (sp?) black sludge. It's kind of hard for a regular oil pump to move stuff the consistancy of jello.
So in other words.. (Score:1)
Man, no matter what you choose to do with your life, there will always be stupid people around to F*&( with you.
Sean D.
Re:What field next (Score:2)
He put 60,000 miles on his car in less than a yearm without ever changing the oil? I'm skeptical.
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Think about it - you're averaging 7 miles/hour 24 hours a day. If you only drive 8 hours a day you're averaging 21mph, and if you only drive 5 days out of the week you're averaging about 30mph during business hours. You can't drive local roads and average 30mph unl
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Just about everyone I know has been in a similar situation at one time in their lives. Yeah, 60k miles in a year is a litt
Re:What field next (Score:3, Interesting)
In the long run I think
Re:What field next (Score:3, Informative)
No, that's not how it works. Our standard of living is set by how much we get. Trading with another country can't reduce our ability to get stuff, only increase it (we still retain the ability to make more stuff by employing the unemployed).
If you want to worry about something decreasing our standard of living, worry about something that will *decre
Re:What field next (Score:2)
You see, she's was having touble with her boyfriend, Art Vandelay. He's an importer/exporter. The trouble was, Art was thinking of forgetting the importing and just focusing in on the exporting. This was a problem because Elaine figured, "why not do both?".
In case you were wondering Art exports Chips - mostly potato (and some corn) and imports diapers.
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Now obviously a car contains all those things but they're not service items and if you have Mitchell manuals or Alldata then generally fixing the car of today primarily require
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Not quite... At least with chrysler, the computers are black boxed, the tech plugs a cable in, sends the data off to detroit and the diagnosis is returned. This was discussed briefly on /. in the last couple months (IIRC, it was GM not releasing service codes) and is done to keep a rogue tech from starting his own shop somewhere, keeping the service codes in the deal
Re:What field next (Score:2)
This isn't going to cut it on a nationwide scale. For the economy to grow, we need to be replacing exported jobs with *higher value* jobs.
Nobody has yet given a dencent answer to the question, what are those higher value jobs?
Perhaps more importantly, what stops those higher value industries from developing overseas first? In the past, there were a lot of
Re:What field next (Score:2)
I'll give you the quick-simple-dirty rundown on why cheap foreign labor helps us out, even if we aren't replacing those jobs "with *higher value* jobs." Its actually quite simple when you understand some basic ecomonics: Cheaper labor = lower consumer prices = more purchasing
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Just curious...what is the 'comparable' salary an average auto mechanic earns? I didn't know they were in the $80-$90K region??
Re:What field next (Score:5, Insightful)
Most economists/capitalists used to say that the market will sort this sort of thing out. Their highly simplified models of humans tell them that when labor markets shift and jobs go overseas, unemployed workers can simply retrain. However real people aren't always retrainable. Sometimes the 52 year old factory worker can't go out and learn something new. Also, most jobs with a similar skillset might become filled rather quickly. For instance, many people suggest unemployed IT workers should start a local IT support business. That may work for a while, but soon that market is saturated.
I think in the end there is a real unavoidable cost for outsourcing and it would be great to hear an economist admit it instead of simply glossing over it with tales of the invisible hand. Then we can consider what measures society/government can take to bridge the gap between economic theory and reality.
I'm not against outsourcing, however I think there needs to be a great deal of focus on retraining, extending unemployment compensation, incentives for early retirement... whatever a more detailed study than I'm willing to undertake would prove effective in helping the newly unemployed.
Re:What field next (Score:2)
What has happened historically is the rich get richer, the upper class, middle class and poor get poorer. Everyone looks at the rich as an example that the American dream actually works. The government (in the pocket of the rich) tells us that the rich need tax breaks too and proceed to give the rich massive flexibility to screw the average worker. The constitution is "reworked" and "re-interpreted" to fit the definition that suits the rich. The average perso
Re:What field next (Score:2)
You post shows hints of the 'economist' attitude I was complaining about in the parent post. You hint that most laid-off workers unable to learn new skills are simply lazy('unwilling'). However it seems that any skill worth learning is going to take a significant investment of time and money. If it didn't, there probably would already be an abundance of trained workers in that field.
Really what I'm getting at is that the process of retraining, relo
Re:What field next (Score:1)
Re:What field next (Score:1)
After this, companies would have to drop their prices to compete with the unemployed who are working on the side. The only gotcha is the high property
Re:What field next (Score:1)
Well, as we move to a pure service economy, there will be two classes of people: Those who do service work and those who have capital. Service work, by its nature, cannot be outsourced. Of course, service work generally pays much less than the white collar jobs now being outsourced.
Outsourcing is a huge boon to those who have capital. To the rest of us,
Bush in his own words (Score:2)
Re:What field next (Score:1)
John Kerry also talks about that if he becomes President, he's going to create 10 million jobs for the 8 million people that are currently unemployed. I have some questions for Senator Kerry:
Who are these other 2 million people that you intend to create jobs for?
How much more in taxes will I have to pay to have the government creating jobs?
Is it really the government's responsibility to
Re:What field next (Score:1)
So I'd say the govt should promote job growth [e.g. lowering taxes or giving grants or simply being ameniable to business] while not compromising the status quo.
Tom
Re:What field next (Score:1)
Re:What field next (Score:5, Funny)
The death industry.
The systematic selection of troublesome individuals, their removal from their community, and the necessary legal and moral stategies for justifing the selection and elimination of this individual.
With the population rapidly expanding at a far faster rate than ability of current political and economic systems to absorb these new young people, the death industry will be the fastest growing new industry of the twenty-first century.
There will be many new opportunities for lawyers to devise legal justification for murder, new openings for religious leaders to develop theologies endowing God's grace on murder (built opon the initial explorations in this field by Wahabi'ists of Saudi Arabia to justify the mass murder of Americans and Israelis through terrorism), new positions for technicians to design and maintain the machines of murder, and scientific and academic positions for modifying the crude 20th century weapons of mass destruction into the focused depopulation engines of tomorrow.
If you find yourself bothered by the reminants of morality and conscience when transistioning to your new career, you'll find the recent development of powerful psychoactive drugs designed to neutralize this area of brain chemistry most helpful.
Re:What field next (Score:2)
This part was totally unnessecary, and seriously detracted from an otherwise very funny post. Do you seriously think the radical muslims of the 20th century invented that concept? Have you never heard of the Crusades? I'm not saying the popes of the middle ages invented it either, but the modern islamic fundamentalists haven't come up with anything new, e
Not that many IT jobs in India! (Score:2)
I'd say most IT jobs lost are due to the dot-com boom crash. There are far less than a million IT professionals in India doing outsourced work.
It seems like everyone doesn't have their ideal job in IT says that their job went to India. That'd require probably 10x more IT workers in India than there are.
Re:What field next (Score:4, Insightful)
Pyramid Schemes. I will be happy to train you in the lucrative field of scamming people out of their money for $2000 + 10% of what you eventually collect from the trainees you go out and recruit for yourself (and 10% of your 10% take from them, and so on and so on...) If you are at a loss as to who to recruit, start with everybody you've ever known. Once they stop talking to you and begin to specifically dis-invite you from parties, turn to spam. Bothering people in coffee shops is good, too. It can't fail!!!11!1!
Or you could teach English in Japan. It hardly pays anything, and the hours are insane, but rumor has it that American men are considered very sexy over there... even the geeky ones! It's a nerd paradise, where grown-ups play video games, everybody has cell phones, and there's no shame in loving bad J-pop music and anime! Woo-hoo!
Or you could just stay in the IT industry and wait another month or two. Seriously now, the company I work at is already hiring a bunch of new people, and I hear from the people on my "job network" that the situation is similar all over the place right now.
Teaching English Overseas (Score:2)
Re:What field next (Score:5, Interesting)
The most rational set of questions to ask start with the most imporant ones to Investors.
[1] How many dollars of dividends has your company been able to pay to their shareholders as a result of "Outsourcing?"
[2] How much has your compensation risen including all factors since you began "Outsourcing?"
[3] How many dollars of payroll did you save as a result of "Outsourcing?" Be sure to include any Executive Raises as countervailing factors.
[4] Have you had any of your Intellectual Capital Stolen as a result of "Outsourcing." This is probably the biggest and worst part but it never gets talk.
[5] What Liability does my company incurr if data handled in "Outsourced" facilities is diverted to ILLEGAL Purposes such as Identity theft?
[6] What legal devices do we have to deal with employees who misuse data we "Outsource" the processing and service of.
[7] If the data or programming serviced is "Outsourced" what does it do to National Security. This is a common problem with Defense Contractors now. Most outsourcing functionally becomes Industrial Spying for the company Hired to service in the other country.
[8] Does outsourcing this service cause the development of competition which may destroy the operation?
After the issues of Company profitablity are discussed then get down to the other issues.
[1] Are you Receiving assistance to be in business from State or Local Governments such as Industrial Development Bonds etc?
[2] Do you meet the US EEOC requirements in the employement of all of the Outsourced employees? (Age Sex etc discrimination) Most Outsourcing actually is a masquerade for some form of racism or sexism.
[3] Do you deal with the US Government directly or as a subcontractor? If so how do you expect the government to be able to pay your contract if everyone avoids paying US Taxes by "Outsourcing"?
[4] Do you expect the United States Government to protect your operations using if need be Military Forces to make sure your trade is safe? If so how do you expect to have it paid for when you avoid paying the taxes which support it by "Outsourcing?"
[5] Can you point to any nation which has benefitted by lowering wages and reducing its standard of living?
[6] Do you like trading in the lucrative market in the USA? If so how do you think that it will remain lucrative with you and others "Outsourcing."
[7] Are you as an American Incorporated Company benefiting by US Laws, Currency and infrastructure? If so how do you expect this to be maintained if you continue "Outsourcing."
Then you can come down to the issues such as the effects on Citizens generally. These include:
[1] Do you believe that United States Citizens have any rights in their own land that arise from Citizenship? If so what are they? If so how do your actions affect these rights?
[2] What value do you believe should be placed on loyalty to your fellow countrymen?
[3] How important is the USA to world safety and prosperity with regards to the cost of lives and treasure from US Taxpayers taken to pay for these actions and conditions?
The whole set of issues here address the matter indirectly but they completely attack the reasoning behind the "Outsourcing" game.
Re:What field next (Score:1)
My question to the Board would be: What are you going to do when you think your Indian employees cost too much?
MOD PARENT UP for question 7.3!! (Score:2)
Re:MOD PARENT UP for question 7.3!! (Score:2)
Because it's so damn safe right now with the US throwing it's weight around...
You May Not Like the US Throwing its Weight... (Score:1)
Are you sure you want to live under a world dominant India/China/OPEC axis? Do you think they will promulgate civil or human rights? Would they have done better in Kosovo or even Rwanda? Want to bet on women's rights? Think the UN is too corrupt now?
Is the US a personal danger to you?
Re:You May Not Like the US Throwing its Weight... (Score:1)
Consider what wealth did to Britain and the USA. They have created a worldwide terrorist crisis as a result of a thousand-year old fantasy of world domination. The US is a personal danger to me while it invades countries for little more reason than settling daddy's scores and ensuring oil and rebuilding contracts for republican cronies, all the while encouraging the hatred of that country's inhabitants against the western world.
But more seriously, do you think that civil or human rights were respected mor
Re:What field next (Score:3, Insightful)
Here's a suggestion: Don't chase the "next new economy". Do something you like. Do something you care about. Do something you're good at.
If you can't find anything like that, then you're stuck with what you get.
Re:What field next (Score:2)
BTM
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Man rings plumber and asks when he can attend for urgent repairs.
"Well, I could be there in around four or five days depending"
"How much do you charge?"
"80 pounds an hour"
"WHAT THE F*CK!! I'm a lawyer and I can't charge fees like
Re:What field next (Score:2)
Undertaker
Both are reasonably well paid jobs, and the latter will be in demand in 10 to 20 years as the 'baby boomers' depart this mortal coil. Only half in jest.