Talk It Over With Captain Crunch 444
John T. Draper is most famous as "Captain Crunch," the legendary phone phreak who taught others how to make illicit use of Ma Bell's facilities to call almost anywhere, almost any time, for free. But (as a glance at his personal page will show you), that is just about the least of Draper's accomplishments. Not only that, he's still going strong. This is your chance to talk directly to a man without whom the modern-day personal computer -- and modern hacking and many other things we take for granted -- might not exist at all, and certainly would not exist in their current forms. One question per post please, and try to avoid asking questions that could be answered with a little online research. We'll send 10 or 12 of the highest-moderated questions to Draper tomorrow, and run his answers as soon as he has time to reply.
lame ass question (Score:5, Interesting)
What grab’s you now? (Score:5, Interesting)
Crunchbox (Score:5, Interesting)
The ethics of Phreaking (Score:5, Interesting)
Gone forever? (Score:5, Interesting)
Favorite story? (Score:5, Interesting)
Do you have a favorite story, either because of the people involved, the tech (high tech or low tech) used, or the problems solved along the way?
--
Still got your whistle? (Score:5, Interesting)
Changing legal climate (Score:5, Interesting)
Two Questions (Score:5, Interesting)
Hacking and the DMCA (Score:5, Interesting)
What would have happened differently if laws like the DMCA were in force during your first phreaking sessions?
Unfair demonization? (Score:5, Interesting)
It is an honor to "speak" with you.
Recently, in an information security class, I gave a presentation based mainly on your 1970's exploits and how you (and other's who have the fortunate distinction of not being made scapegoats by the government) helped lead to a more secure POTS system and stronger security in general, which is what most hackers want anyway.
My professor later berated my choice of topics as (his words not mine) "he is an obvious lawless felon and is not worthy of this class's time". How do you respond to this unfair characterization by others?
Also, it would seem that no lessons have been learned over the years since we still insist on punishing the messengers (hackers) rather than the cause (insecure systems). Is there any way you think we can change these perceptions?
Thank you.
Freedom (Score:2, Interesting)
Age and views (Score:5, Interesting)
In what context do you put your activities of your youth now that you are older and, presumably, wiser. Have your views of hacking and the ethical implications changed over the years? Back then, if it were demonstrable to you that your activities were causing harm (presumably financial), would it have made any difference back then, does it make any differnce now?
My question... (Score:5, Interesting)
what was it like? (Score:5, Interesting)
OpenBSD (Score:5, Interesting)
What prompted you to use OpenBSD as the platform for the Crunch Box? Not intending to start a BSD flame war, I am interested in why you personally chose OpenBSD versus any other BSD or Linux or anything else.
What BBS's, if any did you frequent? (Score:5, Interesting)
Phreaking in Popular Media (Score:4, Interesting)
Little boys (Score:5, Interesting)
I also hear that you're a big proponant of illicit drug use, has this been a life time habit, or something more recent, such as when you started going to raves.
PS.. maybe its a troll, but if you've met him, you know the above it true.
DMCA overhaul recommendations? (Score:5, Interesting)
Where is the bleeding edge? (Score:5, Interesting)
SoupIsGood Food
Your most useful references (Score:4, Interesting)
if you could do it again.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Having grown up (there's a scary thought) hearing about the pioneering work you did, i always wondered:
If you could do it over again, would you do something differently? Anything you regret doing? Perhaps more importantly, anything you regret having not done?
(In the context of your telecom / computer life, i don't mean to pry into your.. ah.. personal affairs
Steve Jobs (Score:5, Interesting)
YOUR fault we're in this mess??? (Score:5, Interesting)
Now we're watching a world get built where PhD thesis material might be illegal [securityfocus.com], writing code can get you arrested [eff.org] and charged, and even giving an academic presentation [princeton.edu] is threatened.
How much responsibility, if any, do you think the early phreakers and hackers have for this rash of paranoid law?
Tastes great/Less filling- obscurity or security? (Score:5, Interesting)
In comparing the security back in the day, and modern, much more complicated systems, how much of a factor is overall complexity in the way things have changed over the years? Does more complexity (and therefore obscurity) make things harder, or does it make things easier, since even the people doing the security don't understand what's going on?
In other words, what's your take on obscurity/security?
Personal choice for fame (Score:3, Interesting)
2600 (Score:2, Interesting)
Recent events and the DMCA (Score:5, Interesting)
A recent story here on Slashdot covered university ID cards being flawed, and the DMCA being invoked to prevent discussion of the problem publicly.
Given that your
-/-
Mikey-San
http://www.mikey-san.net/
Re:Unfair demonization - or accurate portrayal? (Score:4, Interesting)
Or better:
How do you respond to those who say you merely stumbled onto something (the whistle) that did something that was already known by EVERYONE (2600hz tones which was published in AT&T Manuals in PUBLIC Libraries), and exploited it for personal gain (free phone calls/publicity)?
Now That the Dust has Settled... (Score:5, Interesting)
Copyright Issue (Score:2, Interesting)
The others? (Score:5, Interesting)
As the stories about your life state on webcrunchers.com, you got into phone phreaking because of those blind kids, who showed you the cool stuff.
Now you're being recognized as the world's master of phone phreaking, and many other sorts of hacking. But, what happened to the kids who got you into this? What is their current occupation? Did Dennie indeed became a DJ?
Hero Worship of Criminals (Score:1, Interesting)
I think if you replace "accomplishments" in the writeup with "criminal acts", I think it would paint the guy in a more accurate light.
Of course, hero-worshipping criminals is nothing new to Slashdot.
What do you think of the current 2600 crowd? (Score:5, Interesting)
Seems to me that the current crop of "2600" folks are much less tech-savvy than we were in the 70s. There is a lack of original thought and a willingness to take actions that cost private individuals money through fraud and vandalism. What do you make of this trend, and do you see any indications that it will turn around?
-Ben
Re:Is this for real? (Score:3, Interesting)
But the nice thing about language is the fact that it isn't permanent, definitions can be flexible, and can even change outright. Computer geeks tend to be a bit annoyed with this aspect of language since it makes it harder for us to write computer programs where the meaning of a word might change one day.
Civil Rights & Privacy Fears (Score:5, Interesting)
Considering your unique set of experience and insight, what do you most fear in the impending struggle between the government's desire to have total information and the people's right to liberty? Or, in other words, against what do we need to be most vigilant?
Re:Is this for real? (Score:2, Interesting)
or
s/cracker/hacker/
it just doesn't matter anymore...the media has blurred the definition
I enjoyed an evening with him-- he is very skilled (Score:1, Interesting)
At the time I never let him know I was a world famous phone phreak, and I kept that from most people in that city (san francisco).
Anyway.... I was showing him a bunch of macintosh assembly of mine, and while scrolling it at high speed past his eyes he immediately spotted a macro construct that was not a true opcode and Captain Crunch said "hey thats not part of motorola assembler is it? and pointed out the token." I aasked if he did much mac programming and at that time he was into the internet, but not mac programming, and said he lacked the money for the many books needed, or a good enough system.
I felt sorry for the guy because that whole evening I was sizing him up and he was very very quick thinking and semi-genius, yet sufferred from a very mild touch of schizophrenia, or some form of mania. He was truly amazing.
And though I have done far far far more in phone phreaking than most of the people ever written in exploitation books, and have excelled in systems programming commercially, I realized that draper was truly "the real deal".
hundreds slander him, and tarninsh his reputation, and drop innuendos about his sexual nature, and I am saddened taht all those mental midgets never recognized true genius.
I "hacked" draper that night in another way. I got him to eat a warm dinner of sliced lamb at a restaurant, while at the time he was on a very very strict self-imposed macrobiotic diet of blue-green algea and sinple proteins. I was evil. He ate it. But I despise vegetarians, or at least the shee numbers of them that infest northern california. I could tell you some astounding stories of their influence on society, but I got to get one to eat innocently slaughtered flesh.
I feel so sorry for draper, but I see his face and name in print often, so he is doing something right in this world.
Present state of telco security (Score:5, Interesting)
In the mid-80's, I lived in an apartment that was right upstairs from a GTE Telenet point of presense... and all their dialup modem lines terminated in an unlocked punchblock box *in my bathroom*!!
What is your assessment of the improvements in the quality of telco security, both physical and that which is more ephymeral, since those times?
Some Hard Questions for John Draper (Score:2, Interesting)
Mr. Draper, hasn't this charade gone on long enough? Slashdot is only the latest in an endless, decades-long set of press appearances in which you've made errored claims, false self-aggrandizement, and general harm to the very community you claim to be a part (and representative) of.
Why do you continue to let people think you discovered the secret of the Captain Crunch whistle? It was Joe Engressia and other blind phone phreaks who made that delightful serendiptous discovery, that the whistle in Captain Crunch Cereal in the 1960's was within the same tone range as the vital 2600hz that telephone trunks used to signal a TSPS console. You named yourself after the cereal, which is perfectly acceptable, but when the press (which you sought) started representing you as the discoverer of this secret, why did you take no effort to dissuade them? Why do you let the people who were much more technologically astute than you lose the glory in later years, when at least we can have an accurate historical picture of those times?
You went through several stints in the federal pen for your actions. In one case it could be argued you were being entrapped, with the challenge being laid to you to prove your mettle and you going to one of the nearby (tapped) telephone booths to get caught, but shouldn't you at least warn all these young fans who don't know how much pain you endured under that system? Your gift was never in innovation, but in experience; you travelled and travel a lot, and got to see many things, including many negative things. Why not make a real effort to tell that story?
Why do you continually use your (unearned) stature within the hacker community to pursue and seduce young people within it? Is it pathological? Have you sought help? Many of these poor kids, lacking parental guidance, swayed by your legend, fascinated with your promises, have fallen under your efforts. Many others who were ham-fistedly assaulted with your pick-up lines and moves have gone on to warn others, but still you use these hacker conventions and raves as your personal fishing ground. Don't you think that this will eventually blow up in your face, and give the world at large another tool to crack down on the hacker world unfairly, once you're shown as an example of one of the predators that lurk within its bounds?
It would be my dream to have these questions presented to you, but I understand if they won't. I wish there were a webpage, a support group, a place that young people could go to learn your story, the real one, the ugly one. If one young mind could be saved and their hearts aimed at true heroes, like Mark Bernay (the Midnight Skulker) or Cheshire Catalyst or Phil Zimmerman or Gary Kildall, perhaps the world would be a better place.
Why are you still doing this to us?
Re:Phreaking in Popular Media (Score:3, Interesting)
-aiabx
Re:Little boys (Score:1, Interesting)
I wasn't there, but heard the same thing from several people who were. Apparently it got so bad the organizers had to eventually take him aside and tell him to knock it the fuck off.
Effective Action (Score:5, Interesting)
O.K., that's really two questions. 1.5 Questions? Is it permissible to have a fractal number of questions? Anyway, thanks in advance.
Effects of DMCA on a young computer industry (Score:2, Interesting)
How do you imagine today's computer industry would be different had the DMCA been enacted during the industry's infancy?
To hell with all these (Score:5, Interesting)
Who Loses? (Score:3, Interesting)
But what if you merely tricked the phone company's representative (the computerized switchboard) into giving you the service for free? That's where the real gray area begins. Who really loses if that pair of wires was going to go to waste at that moment anyway?
Re:Favorite story? (Score:5, Interesting)
> Do you have a favorite story, either because of the people involved, the tech (high tech or low tech) used, or the problems solved along the way?
Along those lines:
What do you consider the most outrageous hack you *did* perform, and likewise, what's the most outlandish hack you *didn't* do, but the media falsely ascribed to you out of fear and ignorance?
(For instance, Mitnick would probably list one of his many feats of social engineering as his "greatest hack", and his mythical ability to start World War III by whistling into a telephone as the most amazing ability falsely ascribed to him.)
P.S. I was born too late to even think about getting into boxing, but you were still an inspiration. *waves soldering iron* Thanks for being one of the guys whose ideas got me started on my way to a great career in tech.
A Hacker's Life in Prison (Score:5, Interesting)
-Lucas
Re:Steve Jobs (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Some Hard Questions for John Draper (Score:1, Interesting)
You indicate, in your message, that Draper's supposed high IQ and intelligence automatically makes him above criticism and beyond complaint, regardless of his actions. That sounds like the words of a very young mind, because as one gets older one realizes that there are some aspects of a person that are not saved by their potential abilities.
I don't know why you think the post is homophobic; I never discussed the gender of the Draper's targets, only the age of them, because that's the issue. Young, impressionable, told that this man who is offering them stretching exercises and drugs is a great, incredible person... that's the issue.
Perhaps a great coder has a drinking problem that leads to an early death. (Phil Katz, of PkZIP fame). Perhaps a singer with a beautiful voice falls prey to drug use and addiction and takes their voice too early from the world (Joplin, many others). Maybe they even stain the latter part of their life with actions and nastiness that partially undo the great works they would otherwise have (Charlie Chaplin comes to mind).
But this is a specific case of victimizing young people to satisfy your needs, regardless of the criminality of the act, regardless of the bad name it gives the entire culture (hacker or rave) and trading in on your own abilities and fame to lure these impressionable folks to you. This is not ancient history, my friend, this is 2002. This is 2003. This is ongoing, and you are condoning and perpetrating it as some sort of orientation discrimination to point out this out.
There is nothing in these actions (which are true and factual, I assure you) which deserves your breathless endorsement and starry-eyed platform building.
Again, show me where I have lied, and I will show you that I have not.
*Really* Crunchy? (Score:1, Interesting)
coding style (Score:5, Interesting)
I read somewhere (might have been Hackers by Steven Levy) that you have a highly idiosyncractic and paranoid coding style, checking and double-checking everything. Is this true? What can you tell us about it?
I saw you naked. What was that about? (Score:5, Interesting)
How do you feel about... (Score:2, Interesting)
Draper (Score:5, Interesting)
Before anyone mods me down, these are real questions, ask anyone who came in contact with the creepy buttraper draper.
Re:Crunchbox (Score:3, Interesting)
the crunchbox runs openbsd. if the crunchbox is going to be profitable, they need to keep costs down (obvious). they do this by using a free os. however, suppose theo decided to end the obsd project. shopip is suddenly sol. sure, they could switch to fbsd, nbsd, or even linux. but now, they'd have to re-tool everything, and that will cost $$
if they give back, that may encourage other companies to give back too. by companies giving back valuable code, obsd may become a solution for someone that, prior to donated code, was not a solution. that new customer(s) may contribute resources to the project (cd/tshirt sales, write new code of their own, hardware to test, etc etc). things get peachy all-around.
example? if enough companies gave code to the obsd project, that may (although highly unlikely) encourage cisco to release vrrp with a no nonsense, free for all to use for whatever purpose, license. obsd could then become a solution to many people looking to build a redundant firewall solution using known technology. even shopip/draper could profit from that.
Legislation and the hacker spirit (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Little boys (Score:2, Interesting)
He then tried wooing me by telling me to ask everyone I know if they've heard of him.
A few people I spoke to told me how great he was. An "Apple Computer" legend was an answer I received many times. Then I starting asking around people I used to work with. One told me that when he was still a kid, he was hit upon by Draper. Many others told me that he was a raving little boy loving lunatic and to stay well away from him.
I believe all three views.
Answering more questions... (Score:2, Interesting)
Q: I was curious what BBS's you frequented back in the day. I used to hang out on BBS's that ranged from Ripco in Chicago (very popular phreaker hangout) to USS Enterprise in Houston, TX, and of course, phreaking was the way that one tended to call BBS's.
A: I never went into any of the BBS's. I Do remember the controversy of the 8BBS one. It was on a PDP-8 (Really old schoolers would know this one). Then, I joined the WELL in 1983.
Q: Do you regret adding the 'crunch berry' to your popular formula, just to hype up what was already a perfectly good product?
A: Perhaps I should put "crunch Berrys" in the Crunchbox. No, I got a better idea, why not I just pack a box of CrunchBerries with each Crunchbox?
Q: Do you think that such actions will lead to cereal deflation among your territories?
A: WOW! Interesting point.... perhaps it might shift the whole new world order (dis-order?)
Q: How do you feel about these depictions of phreaks and hackers? Is it good that media largely glosses over the reality, and focuses on making them look hip, or is it vaguely insulting?
A: If it sells movies, they will do it... and make whatever representitives they want in order to sell movies.
Q: What illicit technology offers the most fun and challenge today... where are the new frontiers for today's hackers to push the bleeding edge, and what interesting directions do you see them taking with it?
A: How about tracking down spammers and hacking into their PC's when they are spewing out all that spam? I mean, if people are going to hack, why not hack the spammers?
Q: My dad swears he met you in the late 70's. It's his only claim to fame.
So...is it true? Did you meet him?
A: I have no clue - I don't know you, or your dad, so how can I be sure?
Q: What books, websites, IRC sites, etc would you suggest for an aspiring security engineer? Do you think these have any useful information, or it impossible to learn the necessary skills from these sources?
A: I frequent the computer security web sites like Securityfocus, BugTrax, etc. Some do, others don't. Best way to learn, is to "tinker", but we have to get rid of the DCMA first, so write to your congressman.
Q: Is there a cereal box whistle that will get me past the "The page cannot be displayed" message?
A: Yes, it's called "TIME"... I'm sure you'll be able to access "webcrunchers.com" soon, just let the effects of the slashdot wear off. I've had to cut way down on the number of people who can get on it, by request of my Co-lo
Q: If you could do it over again, would you do something differently? Anything you regret doing? Perhaps more importantly, anything you regret having not done?
A: Yes - NEVER trust your best friend. I've always been a trusting guy. somewhat naive, but always quick to help people out. But people fuck up, which got me in trouble.
Q: Are you and Steve Jobs still friends? Is it true that your "blue box" design inspired the iMac?
A: Jobs wouldn't give me the time of day. I'm always in touch with Woz and Mitnick (which I assume is at the RSA Conf in SF at the moment)
Q: In your day, phreakers et al were pretty much barely a blip on the radar screen. A few of you got charged with old laws, several were threatened or intimidated, and many many kids followed in your wake.
Now we're watching a world get built where PhD thesis material might be illegal [securityfocus.com], writing code can get you arrested [eff.org] and charged, and even giving an academic presentation [princeton.edu] is threatened.
How much responsibility, if any, do you think the early phreakers and hackers have for this rash of paranoid law?
A: It's all greed... back then, it was essentially the same... Phone co secrets were "Forbidden information", where mere posession of such information is ille
I've got a great question.. (Score:1, Interesting)
But i'm sure i'll get lost in all the trolls...
Were you ever aware that the wonderful movie "sneakers" had a blind phone phreak named 'whistler' ? I was curious to know if the crunch would know anything about this, I remember seeing something simliar about this on his site..
Re:Little boys (Score:3, Interesting)
I way 19 when we met, around 3 years ago, at a security conference we were both invited to speak at.
Let's get this out of the way: Draper is a very interesting, but also very weird, toothless drug user, but I'm not sure whether or not he's a sexual predator.
However...
1. He did invite me and a couple of other boys to his hotel room, and tried to interest us in his "energy workouts". I didn't perceive anything sexual about this. He claimed the energy workouts were a substitute for sleep. According to Draper he routinely gets only 1-2 hours sleep a night (and doesn't need anymore). I was curious. He asked me to jump on his back so I could see how strong the workouts made his back. According to Draper he developed the workouts after mafiozos in jail beat the shit out of him, injuring his back after he refuse to teach them how to phreak. Anyway, I hesitated because he seems old and frail and I was afraid I would damage him. He actually carried me on his back around the room. After that, he put me down, and asked the other guys to jump on his back. They freaked, and after a couple of minutes they found an excuse to leave and I left with them.
2. I met Draper again later that night, for an after party rave conference goers were invited to. John has amazing energy for a man his age, he was setting the tone at the rave, and was easily the oldest person there. He looks considerably older than his age, so he actually looked alot older than the oldest person there. He later claimed he had a real energy connection with the DJ going. (I was feeding off his energy, and he was feeding off mine, at it was just amazing!).
3. We left the party together and I had a chance to walk with him alone to his hotel (early morning). We had a very interesting conversation, and he basically spilled his guts and told me his life story over breakfast at the hotel (he was very nice and invited me to join him).
4. I was not threatened at any point at the least by Draper. My impression of him was very sad. He's been there right at the beginning, and if he hadn't blown it he would probably be a billionaire today. He recognizes this, and his eyes actually watered when he told me the story.
5. He does have a bad habit of begging. He does kind of look like a bum. He is by no means a security expert. He isn't really that much of a hacker.
6. If anything, Draper is a hippie who never grew up. He acts like an emotionally under developed teenager, and looks like a burnt-out relic. Maybe he just burned brighter than the rest of them, but I suspect he's been through some very hard times.
7. I was glad I met John. He's a prehistoric hacker, and at the same time a moral-to-the-story, this-is-what-you-could-end-up-like-if-you-don't-cu t-the-crap kind of guy. His life would probably make for a very emotional movie.
8. May be he's homosexual, was a special interest in young men, but that doesn't make him a bad person in my opinion. Sexually harassing young men who are physically much stronger than you is a very unhealthy idea, and I'm sure anyone into that would have caught on by now. (perhaps loosing a few teeth in the process... just joking...)
My two cents.
Cheers.
Re:I've got a great question.. (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes - I know all about the Sneakers movie.
Re:The ethics of Phreaking (Score:1, Interesting)
Ethics and morality of phreaking...
Phreakers enjoyed sticking it up to "Ma Bell" especially after everyhing the companies did back then (charging for each phone in a house, charging more for touch tone while it costs less than pulse to operate, and so many other little things)...