Ask Indian Techies About 'Onshore Insourcing'

This Slashdot interview has a little twist to it. Instead of using email, I'm going to relay your questions 'live' to people I meet while I'm here in New Delhi, speaking at LinuxAsia2004. Offshore outsourcing has gotten a lot of attention on Slashdot (and NewsForge) lately, but I figure that from this end we ought to call it 'onshore insourcing' instead. Feel free to ask other questions about 'geek life' in India, too; I'll ask as many questions as I can of as many people as I can, and post their answers when I'm back in the U.S.

Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

Long before outsourcing to India became an issue, large IT companies like American Airlines [aa.com] were virtual H1-B "hardship" visa factories, importing large numbers of technical experts from India and other countries during the dot-com boom.

But when the boom went bust, and the layoffs came, H1-B visa holders were left out in the cold [usbusinessvisa.com], unable to even look for a new job due to the terms of their visas.

Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?

And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas

Since I'm an Indian techie, I'll attempt to answer that. But the disclaimer is that these are purely my personal views and not a general Indian opinion.

Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?

It is quite clear that the US companies are using the tactics of outsourcing purely for their own financial benefit. It is extremely naive to think otherwise. And this is not just a US phenomenon. Every company around the world that outsources cheaper expertise and/or labour is doing just that... trying to get a competitive edge over its rivals by cutting costs. And I am sure that all the Indian developers (all but some of the greenhorns fresh out of college) know this fact when they're getting into it.

So why do the Indians still do it?

The Indian software firms use the US necessity as an opportunity to grow themselves internationally. An Indian company bagging a key US contract can proudly proclaim their achievement and use it as a differentiator amongst its local peers.

Some of the developers, who are geekily inclined, love the opportunity of doing some 'quality development' and so they hardly complain. Others are overjoyed at the prospect of travelling to the US and hence jump onto the bandwagon!

And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?

I, for one, don't entertain illusions that the US companies would fall in love with our work and ignore cheaper alternatives if they present themselves. I don't think anyone else here does either!

With the US (and the global) economy having gone through a rough patch over the last year, the Indian companies have slashed their margins big time, to remain attractive for the Us companies to continue doing business with them. And I think the Indians have understood that in the immediate future they will need to stay one step ahead of their competitors by being the cheapest even though India has managed to brand itself as a key mover of the knowledge-based economy.

Differentiating on price

I, for one, don't entertain illusions that the US companies would fall in love with our work and ignore cheaper alternatives if they present themselves. I don't think anyone else here does either!

supersam's got a good point. An associate of mine recently offshored his entire call center operations to the Phillipines. "Why not India?" I asked (after reading a recent /. thread about this topic).

His answer was that India was too expensive. The Phillipines apparently works at half of what he was being quoted for India contracts. Granted, the English is a bit better in India, but when price is king, India's better quality product didn't matter. (India... hope you've enjoyed your 15 minutes!)

Where does it go from here? Many are drooling over China's expansion into these markets. Indonesia would be tempting if it was a bit more stable politically. Whever it can be done cheaper, the business will go.

I did find it amusing in a previous /. India outsourcing thread, one poster from India praised his firm's CMM level 4 or 5 achievement and talked about how they were getting the business because of their quality efforts. It's a nice goal and it'll retain a couple of accounts, but to pretend for a moment that you're being used because of your quality is like a prostitute thinking she's appreciated for her intellectual qualities.

Hopefully the Corporate "Johns" out there doing the outsourcing (my associate included) will be able to recognize that their own customers assume quality is inherent in their products/services and when their call services, software, manufacturing, etc. is lacking these qualities, consumers will shop with their feet. Still, a visit to WalMart leads me to question whether consumers really care at all about quality. They won't pay for it, but may assume it's there regardless of price.

Re:Price is King

Just to give you some idea of how high our boat is, the US with about 5% of the world population consumes about 1/4 of the world's oil production. If you spread the wealth around without taking into account all boats rising, we'd all be living in third world squalor. If somehow everybody caught up to us overnight economically, it would be an environmental disaster, at least until the oil runs out which might be in 10 years instead of 100.

Re:Differentiating on price

The Phillipines apparently works at half of what he was being quoted for India contracts. Granted, the English is a bit better in India, but when price is king, India's better quality product didn't matter. (India... hope you've enjoyed your 15 minutes!)

Actually, the english is better in the Philippines. There are two national languages in the Philippines; English and Tagolog. America actually occupied the Phillipines from the time of the Spanish-American war until the 1950s, when it was offered Statehood. The Philippines declined and became a sovereign nation, but still had American bases until the 1990s. During this time, English became as widely spooken in business as Tagolog and it is considered a pre-requisit to get a job.

I have visited the Philippines twice and my fiancee is Filippina. I have also done business with Philippino companies and have directly witnessed their work ethic. I have been working in the Silicon Valley for 12 years and also have experience with Indian workers and Indian companies. I can tell you with full certainty: Philippinos have better work ethic, are generally smarter and have a higher degree of education, speak english more fluently and work cheaper than Indians. The one downside is that, since this is not well recognized, there are not as many companies doing outsourcing in the Philippines. Yet.

Competition to India is coming. And it is not just the Philippines. Asia cranks out more engineers than any other part of the world. These guys are smart, ambitious and will work for nothing.

For my dollar, however, I would still rather outsource to Russian firms. They have the best engineers in the world (outside of the Silicon Valley itself).

Resentment or Networking Opporunity?

The international reaction to H1-B was the first question on my mind as well. How many people came back from the US with a great deal of resentment?

On the other hand, I suspect that a good number of people came back from the US with a black book full of contacts, a project or two and perhaps a little seed money.

Can I have my old dot-com job back?

And is this for here or to go?

Here's a question for them

Ask them how they like my job.

Numbers and figures.

I work in India, and I am employed writing software. I make about 7000 rupees a week, and I work about ten hours a day on the average it changes every week. You are right that money is different here. For instance a succelent dinner for two is about fifty rupees.

-Srividya

Re:USA software worker makes 60,000 USA dollars

I was in India in 1999. Back when all this insantity started. I was invited through a friend I met on the internet who wanted to setup a web site farm in Mumbai. Of course I had NO idea it would come to this, But he set me up in a hotel in Goa, gave me SOME money, but not enough.

I hustled and got web site development jobs for the Goa Tourist industry, which was booming at the time.

Back then, the internet infrastructure was very primitive at best. Only ISP was the Indian Government's VSNL, and in Goa it was a joke. Even IF you could obtain a free dialup line (then, there were only 64 lines, and 300 internet cafe's competing for them).

The average Indian programmer was getting about $6,000 a year (1999), now I think it
s more like $15,000 and up.

Once word got out I was in Goa, many people flocked to me, but my Indian friend who initialy brought me over to india got all pissed off, because I took on more work without his approval. What could I do? I had to make money, and he wasn't supporting me anymore.

Anyway, India left a sort of "bad taste" in my mouth, not to mention that my body couldn't handle the food and I got sick all the time. Even though I lived in the tropics all my life, I thought I could deal with the Indian climate... BOY! I was wrong... Oppressivly hot in Feb and March, and constant rains in the monsoon season, I urge anyone considering moving to India to consider this.

One of the things my Indian friend pressed me on, was to train all his up-start programmers. At that time, I was a bit Naive, and eventually got fed up with the monsoons and left in July.

Anyway, this is MY experience in India.... I learned a lot (even picked up some Hindi).

Re:Here's a question for them

I second that. But also ask how they're dealing with my boss - he was a real asshole.

$$$ in developers pockets...

Out of the $25 it costs my company to hire an India-based developer, how much does that developer see, and how much goes to the contracting agency (Wipro, etc...)?

Re:$$$ in developers pockets...

I might be able to answer that in real terms for outsourcing projects (instead of just relocating the jobs)

During the dotcom and shortly after, the going rate for Java developers was around $100-$120 per hour (Northern California). To undercut the competitors and local contractors, an Asian software company bid on (and received a contract) to supply Java programmers.

The billing was at $80 per hour. Out of that, the programmers on site received the following:
a. $40-$50 per diem fees (yes, that's right.. per DAY)
b. free fuel
c. a rented car
d. rented housing, situated reasonably close to their office

Each of the outsourced contracts typically ran for 8-12 months. Obviously, the programmers were also flown in and back home by the parent company. Now, you figure the margins :)

Disclaimer: this is just one case.. so YMMV

Average experience?

How much experience do most Indian programmers have? It seems to me that in ramping up from a few hundred to thosands of programmers over the past few years, most of these people must be fresh out of school... how much training do people need before they start producing reliable results?

What's the diff?

"It seems to me that in ramping up from a few hundred to thosands of programmers over the past few years, most of these people must be fresh out of school"

And this was not the case here in the USA during the "Dot Com Boom"? I sense an invalid argument...

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that...

..the US produced the computer industry as it exists today, and were it not for the dot-com boom, the web as we know it today would not exist.

While there is a degree of truth in your argument, let's not forget, for instance, that HTML/HTTP was invented in Europe, as was Linux.

Code Monkeys v. Architect?

Related to the experience question: Many US business pundits claim that the US is only outsourcing the low end code monkey and support jobs, and is keeping the higher end, more prestigeous "project management" and architect jobs in the US?

First, is this the case? or is India also excelling in architectural and design work?

If it is the case, is there a resentment for the imperialistic attitude in only giving India the low end projects?

Finally, in a land where there are real monkeys am I making a big cultural blunder by calling people "code monkeys"?

Quality of life

American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?

Re:Quality of life

Is this a flame? Programmers cant form unions in the U.S., at least in practical terms. We'd just be fired and replaced. The US work week is usually well in excess of 40 hours, with no overtime. We get a paltry 2 weeks vacation a year, which oftentimes we are discourage/prevented from taking. Insurance costs are skyrocketing, including copays and out of pocket expenses. Profit sharing and stock options are from the last century.

Re:Quality of life

Yes, but you are guaranteed many things like family and medical leave, workplace health and safety standards, freedom from discrimination for a laundry list of protected classes (race, sex, age, sexual orientation in many cases etc.), a minimum wage, at companies of a certain size (which isn't very big, like 250+ employees) you must be offered health insurance at group rates, unemployment insurance, social security etc. I completely agree with your assessment of how hostile things have become, but what still remains is a huge percentage of the cost of American labor.

Re:Quality of life

I have just abandoned my Engineering job in US, and returned to Canada.

What you said couldn't be more true. People in the US are screaming about worker right and such, but where I was working, there as this thing called "Freedom to Work Law" which states something to the effect that if you want to quit you got the legal right to do so, and if your boss want to let you go, he can do so at the moment notice - so much for job protection.

The result of such law and working environment? Well, when my boss' in his office, everyone pretends to work hard; when he is off, no one work, Period!

Oh, Med insurance, co pay, and deduction are entirely different matter. Talk about the US education system with its "Left no Child Behind" initiative - what a joke.

By the time all these things figured out, my pay checks was much smaller than what I would make here in Canada, where I have to work for a grand total of 37.5 hours per week.

Did I say my US employer only expects me to work a minimum of 45 hours per weeek?

Yup the previous poster was just trolling.

Bye America.

Re:Quality of life

Over 40 hours/week and no OT?? Man, I think you seriously need to look for a new job...

My first rule of thumb is..."I do not work for free". I work, I work hard, and do what it takes to get the job done, but, I do not work for free.

Look into contracting, friend...at least get paid for the work you do. I'm a contract employee...kind of in both worlds. I get 4 weeks a year vacation/sick time...10 holidays..until last 2 years..didn't have to pay anything towards my benefits..now, I pay $8/paycheck for full coverage (med, dental, eye).

Good jobs are out there, but, you gotta be flexible...and go to where they are...

Re:Quality of life

Added to that was the stress of driving, of unreliable power situation, and of a host of other things that routinely plague an under-developed nation.

Was that when you were working in India, or when you were working in California?

Re:Quality of life

American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace?


No.

Are you allowed to organize into unions?


There are no unions for engineers/programmers. The companies have two "unions" - NASSCOM for software and MAIT for hardware.

Legally, nothing stops anyone from organizing a union, but on the few attempts made by some engineers, the HR guys across several companies - including US owned operations - shared info and blacklisted those engineers. (Basically HR people are the same kind of scum the world over. Refer to Catbert for details.)


How long is your work week?

Legally 40 hours. People may spend 50 to 60 hours if required. Usually it is, thanks to the stupid conference calls that US managers love.


What are your working conditions like?

Standard dilbert cubicle.


What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?

Vacation = usually 25 days a year. This may be called "earned leave" or "privileged leave" and is encashable for money if not consumed.

Official holidays (legally *required*) = 10 days a year. These can not be encashed.

Medical = Rs 15000/- a year for misc medical expenses.

Medical insurance coverage is required.

Profit sharing = optional. Wipro gives it. Can't say about any others.

Stock options = optional. I know some people who are millionaires. Yes, in US dollars. I've not made a penny. Yet.

Hope this helps.

Re:Quality of life

Only in the U.S. would "medical" and "dental" [insurance] be considered benefits. In every other country I'm familiar with in the world, medical services are either universal, or non-existant; in such countries, the idea of an employer subsidising medical insurance seems as ludicrous as an employer subsidising your public library membership.

Re:Quality of life

I work for a large Multinational Tech Co.

Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? -- Yes. The rules are the same.

Are you allowed to organize into unions? -- Unions are definitely allowed by law. But as in the U.S there are no Unions of Software Professional. BTW, India is probably the only place in the world where there is a democratically elected communist state govt. In fact, the labor laws are stricter here. Its nearly impossible to fire Blue Collared Workers or Declare Bankruptcy.

How long is your work week? -- I put in the usual 40 hrs a week over 5 days.

What are your working conditions like? -- The food in the cafeteria is better here than what I had when I was in U.S :-)

What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? -- Folks in India probably get more vacation than in the U.S. As per Indian Law there has to be atleast 14 days of earned leave and 7 days of sick leave. This is excluding the 3 national holidays (Republic Day, Independence Day, Gandhi Jayanti); 3 Hindu Holidays, 2 Muslim Holidays and 2 Christian Holidays, Plus 1 State holiday; Unless they fall on the weekend. As far as Medical goes, Govt of India Rules specify that a group Medical Insurance Policy be taken out by the Co. Usually this works out to a coverage of about $10000 for about $40 a month. Profit Sharing, Stock Options and Employee Stock Purchase Plans all exist. In fact one of the biggest stories used to be the Infosys Stock Plan. Also, the Govt Specifies that 12% of your Salary be paid by the Company towards Pension each month. This earns about 9.5% interest.

I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive? -- Thats because cost of living is far cheaper here. Food - about $50 a month, Rent about $175 a month, Entertainment, Eating out etc.. about $100 a month. So in all about$350 a month is more than enough. Whatever remaining usually goes into buying a car or a house.

Re:Quality of life

What legal protections? White collar workers generally do not get the kind of protections blue collar workers do. Salaried workers, for example, who work tens of hours of overtime per week without seeing an extra cent.

Also note that American white collar workers have the longest work weeks and shortest vacations of pretty much any country in the world.

As for medical and dental benefits, those are factored into the compensation, and are not a hidden cost.

Two Q

The most important question I would like to ask is "Is the picture there as rosy as painted by the media?"

From what I keep hearing, the scenario there right now is being compared to the tech boom here (in US) in the 90s. Is it true that "If you have a degree, immaterial of what degree, you can get a tech job."

11K/year

How do you feel about competing on what I see as a non-competitive playing field? $11,000 per year is a good salary in India, but wouldn't allow me to live above poverty in any U.S city.

Re:11K/year

11K a year is about minimum wage, BTW. So the people in most US cities who are making your lattes, flipping your burgers, and bagging your groceries are expected to live off of that.

(Ultimately, it should be hoped that living costs will come down in those US cities, but the monkey wrench in the works is housing: people are not willing to sell their homes for less than they paid for it, and with low interest rates on financing, they haven't felt a reason to yet.)

Population vs. population with jobs?

With one billion people [indianchild.com] in India, what is being done to increase the number of employable people? Granted, while we in the US may not like our jobs leaving, it must be helpful to Indians. What is being done to increase the employability of the average Indian?

Hmm

Ask them if slashdot is popular in New Dehli?

Education and Training

To what effect is the Indian education making changes to keep up with the demand for trained IT people?

Education Costs

More specifically:

How much does an Indian college education cost the typical student? Is it government subsidized, or are students expected to pick up the entire cost? And how does that cost compare to the average yearly salary of a college-educated technology worker (ie, how long does it take you to pay of college debt?)

Real estate prices and cost of living

With the influx of cash and availability of higher incomes (according to local standards), how'd Indian real estate market doing? What does it cost to rent a two-bedroom for the family? To buy a house?

Do you think that Indian IT boom will repeat Californian and Eastern European patterns, where availability of US dollars drove the living costs through the roof, thus making developers not a whole lot cheaper than hiring local American engineers?

Do you see the costs rising in Indian real estate market? What would be the monthly salary, according to your estimate, to have a comfortable living in India in 2004, and let's say, 2009?

Biggest Contrast

What is the bigget contrast between work and daily life in terms of:

-Internet Connection
-Electrictiy
-Water
-Living Space size when compared to office size

Cost of living?

What does a decent 2 bedroom apartment cost per month?

How about food for 1 month?

Utilities, etc?

Re:Cost of living?

What does a decent 2 bedroom apartment cost per month?

Depends on how far it is from what americans call "downtown." See, unlike in the US, people in Indian cities prefer to live *near* downtown. So rents are much much higher if the flat is close to where the offices and shops are. Such a flat might cost around Rs 25000/- per month (around $500/-) and would be 1500 sq ft in size. 20 minutes away would be around Rs 10000/- per month. 30 minutes away would be around 5000/- per month.


How about food for 1 month?

I can eat out every night for less than Rs 300/- per person per night. If I cook at home, it'll probably cost me around 50/- max. (That's around $1 and change.) I don't have breakfast, and lunch is Rs 25 at the office - that's 50c to you.


Utilities, etc?


I assume that means water and power.

Let's see - power would be between 500/- to 1000/-

Water would usually be included in the flat rent or building charge. Say another 1500/- which would include water (unmetered) plus security and the use of the building gym and/or swimming pool.

Respect

On many news sites, including this one, its common to see remarks like:

Outsourcing is OK for repetitive or unchallenging tasks, but you can't get the cutting edge / high quality / knowledgeable programmers that you'll get in the USA

How does it feel to have your skills and knowledge continuously disparaged by people with little or no experience of working with Indian programmers?

Re:Respect

I would not phrase the issue the way you have quoted.

• Outsourcing is OK for repetitive or unchallenging tasks, but you can't get the cutting edge / high quality / knowledgeable programmers that you'll get in the USA

I would instead, with experience in the matter, address the dichotomy this way:

• If your company has developed a process to the point where all the variables are known and you can describe it sufficiently for a stranger to duplicate your results, then it is a valid and proper solution to find the cheapest stranger who will deliver those results. However, you should never outsource a prototyping task that you would build better yourself; you should never "experiment" with your outsourcing group; you should never invent at a distance. Outsourcing should be done to improve your efficiency, not your effectiveness.

It's not that the Indians are not capable of all those things; they are. But it is a matter of maintaining your core competencies, and ownership of design. Any outsourcing contractor has only one stake in the success: money. You have a stake in the success in many ways, and should always work to refine your own designs until they're perfect. No other firm in the world cares how effective your products are. These offshore companies excel at turning a definition into a production: that's their business model. The outsourcing houses are not geared up to do your designs for you, to read your minds, to focus-group your market, to educate you, or to replace you.

Paraphrasing the old maxim, Make it work, make it work well, then (get someone else to) make it work cheap.

American Programmers

How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?

Re:American Programmers

How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?

You don't have to be bitter, it works both ways: many european companies prefer hiring US firms to do software or hardware projects, depriving local computer engineers of their jobs, because of the higher taxes and stricter employment regulations in the EC. Nobody in the US seems to complain about this, or feel bad about jobless EC workers, so why should Indians should feel bad about the US programmers they put out of a job?

Re:American Programmers

They should feel bad because they are being paid about 1/7 what the job is actually worth.

1/7th of what the job is worth *in the US*. In India, I suspect they're pretty well paid.

That's the flip-size of globalization my friend: since the end of WW2, the US have been busy opening new markets abroad for themselves. Now the new markets in question start to have the ability to compete on the same fields as US industries, and the ole globalization tactic is backfiring.

The USA hurt european countries bad in its days too, now it's their turn to get hit by emerging countries. Every part of the globe has had a glorious economic world-domination era at some point in history, be it Portugal, Italy, France or Britain. America's has started to decline. Tough luck, you're watching History in progress.

China and India have slowed down the Japanese economy, and now they're banging on your door guys. Time to get used to 10+% unemployment, like the rest of us.

What are Indians' attitudes toward the West?

Is the attitude positive because of the increase in trade between us, negative because of cultural invasion, or a combination?

And I'm serious, don't just say "Oh, we love the West" if all you like is the outsourced job. I personally feel that trade is the best form of foreign aid, but I'd rather have an honest enemy than a ally who lies to me.

Re:I agree and disagree with you

But show me where Christians or any other religious followers are blowing themselves up in the name of their faith for the purpose of killing people who presumably aren't of their faith.

Well, certain Christian groups will certainly kill people who they disagree with: see abortion clinic assassinations. From one viewpoint, this is even less respectable than suicide bombers, since you aren't willing to die for your beliefs.

I also don't think the suicide bombers are interested in converting anyone. Their objective is different, and so it doesn't make as much sense to compare it to the evanglistic efforts of Christians.

As well, historically Christians have done some horrible things that were sanctioned, encouraged, or even run by the Church. Of course, that's in the past, but I still have a severe lack of respect for the Catholic Church when they do not seem to regret or apologize for those things, and I would not trust the Church to put my interests ahead of their own.

Back to the evangelistic efforts, I don't think any religious organization has pushed themselves on others are hard as Christians. I don't remember anyone except Christians pretending to be my friend until it was clear I wasn't interested in converting. Or any Buddhist or Muslim religious flyers on my doorstep. Christians also seem to be the only ones telling me I'm going to burn in hell forever. Doesn't seem very nice of them.

Distorting the Economy

Not specifically about IT outsourcing, but more about call centre outsourcing - does the drain of educated people to call centres have any implications for the rest of the economy?

Call centre staff can earn more than teachers, police, nurses, etc - are those professions suffering as a result of the call centres picking out the English speakers?

Is this storing up problems for India's public sector in the future?

What about the long-term?

This point has already been mentioned a bit by previous articles, but I'd like to hear an insider's take on it. The Indian tech economy is booming now, but like in the US, it's an unstable boom. Sooner or later, the US will look to other countries for their tech work, leaving India high and dry. What measures are being taken in India to maintain a strong internal tech economy, in the event that the US is no longer a serious customer?

---

The Simpsons

Totally off topic, but I've always wondered: is the character Apu Nahasapeemapetilon on The Simpsons insulting to Indian's? Do they even air The Simpsons there?

Re:The Simpsons

As an Indian, and a big Simpsons fan, I can answer that question right here.

Apu represents the stereotypical image of an Indian. I personally find it quite amusing, others may have a different opinion. Of course, like any other stereotype, not everyone fits that description. What makes India so interesting is the different subcultures within the country (these differences are more pronounced than the subculture differences in the US), people skeak different languages in different states, different types of food and in some cases different types of clothes as well. So Apu cannot represent a typical Indian ... there is no such thing as a typical Indian.

Apu & Manjula are indeed Indian names - not very common but not uncommon either. So are the names of all their kids ... I never seem to remember them all. The last name however makes no sense! But, somebody obviously did some research in coming up with these characters.

Re:The Simpsons

You might as well ask whether Homer Simpson is insulting to Americans.

Tech Center Job Prestige

Some of my cousins in India tell me that those tech center jobs, such as Dell Tech Support, are actually prestigious in India. Is a tech center job really considered a job to brag about, even though in the US tech support people aren't really admired, to say the least?

Interview Question: starting your own businesses

There exists I think an assumption that the tech industry in India is a legion of coders being handed work from foreign companies, grunting it out for lower wages. Do Indian techs feel that they have the opportunity now to become the producers, the designers, the ones who create businesses? Frankafrank

Questions to ask

Do you have a comparable quality of life to those in the US and UK? Does it bother you at all that you may be taking a job from a person in another country because you are working for what that other country considers a 'lesser' wage, but you consider a very good wage? Do you have any worries that this boom in outsourcing from the rest of the world may abruptly end, much like the dot.com boom ended, and if it does, what will you do then? how do you see India's econmy being effected by this? How much training and knowledge of programming do you have, what qualifications and such do you hold?

Why are so many Indians in American CS programs?

My school's CS department was/is full of Indians. Do most of these students come here hoping to get jobs in America when they graduate or are they interested in going back to India and taking advantage of the outsourcing boom there? Are we as American technical workers shooting ourselves in the foot by helping to train our replacements in American academic institutions?

Re:Why are so many Indians in American CS programs

Its a cultural thing. Indian culture glorifies engineering and math study. American popular culture actively discourages it. It makes perfect sense, thus, that there would be a higher percentage of Indians in engineering and CS.

Have you planned better than us?

I'd ask: what are you all planning to do when your jobs go to Russia [outsourcing-russia.com] as soon as you become too expensive for the US corporations? Plan now, because it's starting to happen [computerworld.com].

Hopefully you guys are able to weather the storm better than us.

Reverse resentment?

I know many Americans resent programming jobs going to India. A decade ago, did Indian engineers/programmers resent America for forcing them to leave to find jobs in a land far from home?

Do they all buy Gateways?

You know... because of the cow thing...

(It's a joke people!)

For love or money?

There are many here who read slashdot who do computer stuff for the love of computers. They work on OpenSource projects for no money. In their spare time, they use a computer. Lots here, I would say, would be happy with half decent pay and just program all day long.

Do the majority do compter related employees do it for the money or for the love or working with computers?
If they were offered more money, would they switch in an instant?

What is the standard of living like?

We hear conflicting reports from "$11,000 means you could live like a king" to "Material goods are so expensive there that you'd be much worse off there than here." What are conditions like for the average Indian programmer?

Re:What is the standard of living like?

The $11,000 on average for a programming job is a myth. On an average a fresh graduate out of a college gets between Rs. 200,000 to 300,000 ($1= Rs.46 approx) . A senior programmer with experience earns between (Rs. 350,000 - 600,000) now thats closer or greater than $11,000. And remeber like USA we have an income tax on higher side (30 - 40%)

And for the living costs $11,000 does not makes you live like a king for the stats

1) An average flat with (2-3 rooms) costs between Rs.5,000 - Rs. 15,000) per month on rent. But these flats are still below par with what you would call an average flat in USA.

2) Buying a flat would cost you around (Rs. 1,000,000 - Rs 2,500,000 ) and thats average (as above ).

3) A car costs between Rs. 250,000 for a Maruti 800 (a 800 cc car with no frills not even an A/C )
to a Ford Ikon (a low end luxury car yeah we call it a luxury car ) for Rs. 500,000 and yeah they have a lot of other realy luxury cars like Mitsuibishi Lancer , Mercedes Benz but they are all out of reach of even a good earning programmer. Most programmers would generally own a two wheeler as the cost of running is low due to low petrol (oops gas) consumption (petrol is Rs. 36 / litre approx )

4) A music CD would cost around Rs. 100 to Rs. 300. A DVD for Rs. 400 Rs. 1,000.

5) A decent shirt would cost in excess of Rs. 500 and a decent pair of trousers arount Rs. 1,000.

6) Food costs are arount Rs. 50 - 100 if you cook at home or Rs. 75 - Rs.150 if u eat out. The cheapest coffee at Barrista (the most popular coffee shop chain here) costs Rs. 30.

7) And yeah a desktop costs around Rs. 30,000 for an economy machine to Rs. 50,000 for a decent one.

8) Telephone costs aroud Rs. 1,000 pm under basic use and Rs. 2,000 to Rs. 3,000 if u make more call or are using dialup internet connectivity (and 98% or so use it).
9) Broadband is either not available or if it costs around Rs. 2,000 pm with dload speeds of 20 kbps (yeah thats b-band in India).
There are other basic eminities but this can give an idea of living costs in India and yeah $11,000 gives you only a decent living below par a middle class in USA but its more than enough for an Indian as we are not as materialistic as the West and there are a lot more people earning a lot less than us.

free software in india...

every country has it's own free software projects (that they are either started or maintain or fund). the usa can point to the gnu project, finland to linux, ireland to spamassassin, germany to gpg, wales to kernel hacking and gnome bug hunting and translations, etc.

i think there's a lack of visability in english-speaking countries as to the contributions from non-english speaking countries. what free software projects are "indian" that those of us in the english speaking world might not be aware of?

Does it work?

One of the arguments for free trade and the internationalization of companies and the work force is the raising of living standards around the world--the rising tide lifts all ships.

The argument against is that companies in the USA out-source and move off-shore to save money--increasing profits by paying less in wages and widening the gap between rich and poor.

From the USA it's pretty clear that whatever the intent, the result is the later. Ford doesn't build in China so Chinese workers can earn enough to buy Fords; Ford builds in China to make more profit on cars it sells in North America and Europe. (To be fair, the American worker complains about jobs moving over seas, then goes to WalMart and insists on $10 shirts and fresh tomatoes year round.)

So how do things look on the other side? Is the Indian standard of living raised by this influx of foreign work, or do companies pay just enough to be competitive to the existing standard and keep the benefits of free trade at the top?

New Indian Startup Companies

I'd like to know how long it will be before Indian tech professionals start forming startup companies to compete directly with their American corporate masters using what they have learned from them.

The Indians are not stupid. They know that it's just a matter of time before the tech jobs go to the next lowest bidder. And just as British imperial domination was thrown off, so will American corporate domination. The American companies that have rushed to offshore outsourcing would be wise not to underestimate the power of nationalism.

Does the Indian 'caste' system affect your job ?

From friends and colleagues I know a little bit about the caste system in India - both in terms of it's positive and negative discrimination so I wondered what sort of effect if any does this have on your work? For instance, a lot of software is developed in teams - are there sensitive issues to resolve if different members of the team are from different castes ?

Questions

1) Do you (developer) find any communication problems with your customers? How much is the variance between your understanding and what the customer wants? What is the amount of face time/interaction do you have during the project?

2) What is the typical lifecycle of a project? Do you have some feedback system to improve quality and processes?

3) What are the hoops you have to jump through (SEI certifications and the lot) to prove your competence? Is it any use at the end of the day?

(more than one question posted since this isn't a traditional interview. And outsourcers should work 3 times harder, dammit!! :-) )

There is a bright side

This is not a question for the Indian techies but rather a comment about the many angry and distressed comments about outsourcing.

First, outsourcing is not new. Every great industry has been built on the ruins of another, somewhere else. Textiles, agriculture, automobiles, shipbuilding, steel,... we've always seen jobs move to where they cost less.

Secondly, although this always hurts those losing their jobs, it almost always brings much greater benefits back than those jobs would keep. Example: without the cheap Asian ships and cheap third-world sailors who man them, everything you buy would cost much more.

Thirdly, there is nothing quite as stimulating as the collapse of one industry to create new ones. Do you really wish you worked in a coal mine? Much of software production has become so routine and monotonous that it's the modern equivalent of industrial labour. There is a reason why these jobs can be done more cheaply, and it's only partly because the Indian workforce is cheap. It's also because the very jobs have become banal.

Consider China, the factory of the world, sending its goods to every country and region of the world. China, which is today the world's second largest importer of goods and services. Instead of trying to compete with a Chinese DVD player at $15, consider that Rolex sells more real solid gold $15,000 watches in China than in any other country.

The rise of the Indian technical support industry should be seen as a sign of hope: thousands, millions of new customers for the leading-edge products that you should be capable of designing and delivering.

Trade is not a pie that you slice and share. It's a reaction that needs constant movement to keep active and grow. Every new Indian job means new opportunities and jobs here in the US as well. It just takes imagination and drive to make it happen.

Well, I do have one question for our Indian colleagues: how do you feel about the bitching that most Westerners show when asked about Indian IT? I mean, presumably you studied hard and feel that you're allowed to compete fairly on an open market?

US dependence

Do you feel that your IT career depends too much on US companies and the US economy? Do you feel that your country's economic policies should instead focus on local business, local infrastructure, etc? Or, do you feel US dependence is part of the "growing process" that will lead later to more self-sufficiency?

Opportunities for Promotion

It seems as if I always hear of American management being exported to handle outsourced projects. What kind of opportunity for vertical mobility does that leave for Indian employees? Is there a "glass ceiling" that prevents you from reaching senior programmer, project manager or other leadership positions? Are all your supervisors and bosses Westerners or do some of you work for other native employees? Does this situation cause any resentment, and if so, have you considered or do you know of any that are planning becoming entrepreneurs? Lastly, what kind of resources are provided by Indian government to promote the growth of entrepreneurial business such as grants, loans or tax breaks?

Innovation

So far it would seem that the majority of IT work US companies have outsourced to India has focused on business support functions. The real innovation (product development, R&D) is still done in the US. Do you think Indian technology companies will try to be competitive in this area as well?

Answers

You know, Slashdot does have quite a sizeable Indian community, though you might not be aware of it. So you might think about asking the questions here itself!

I am an Indian and currently working for Tata Consultancy Services Ltd. [tcs.com], India's largest software company that recently exceeded 1 billion dollars in revenue. Right now I am stationed in South America from where we cater to most of the Latin American countries. I'm pretty much the typical 'target' of most of the American outsourcing anger that gets vented here on /.. Anyway, now that I'm done introducing myself let me see if I can answer some of the highest moderated questions.

How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?

The way most Indians see it, this is mostly American capitalism biting them back in the ass. We do the same thing you do, but we do it at cheaper rates. Sure, we understand that Americans wouldn't be too happy about losing their high-paying jobs, but that is something they will just have to deal with.

Cost of living etc. in India, with emphasis on real estate etc.

Most people who start out in the Indian IT industry do not earn that well. On an average, I would say it is pretty much the same as what one would get after graduating from one of the other engineering disciplines like EE, CE etc. However, with a few years of experience one can get quite a comfortable job. For example, a typical IT worker with 3-4 years of experience can land themselves a job that pays about Rs. 40,000 per month (~ $1000). This is a good income in a country like India where you can have servants in your house for about Rs. 2,000 per month. AFAIK, there has been no study which studies the impact of these new IT jobs on the real estate market, but obviously some effect must be there.

Is the picture there as rosy as painted by the media?

I hate to say this on Slashdot, but it is actually quite good. Students from reputable colleges and universities do not find it difficult to find jobs in the IT sector. However, I would not agree that the degree does not matter. Most companies (the good ones anyway) are quite choosy about the people they pick.

How much experience do most Indian programmers have?

I would say ~5 years on an average. Agreed, there are a LOT of new people coming into the industry, attracted by the 'gold rush', but there are quite a few old veterans here as well. For example, my company is over 35 years old, and it is not uncommon to find people who have been here for the past 7-8 years.

American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?

No, the story you hear about 'sweatshops' are not true. Yes, we do have benefits. No, there no unions, yet. A typical week is 40 hours (8x5), but almost always is more than that, depending on the work load. Sometimes people do work for 15 hours straight, but on other days they also go home after putting in their normal 8 hours. We have vacations and medical benefits. TCS itself is not a public company, so there are no stock options here, but other public companies do give the option to their employees. Labour is inexpensive primarily because of two reasons - there are a LOT of people in India, and the cost of living is quite low.

How does it feel to have your skills and knowledge continuously disparaged by people with little or no experience of working with Indian programmers?

Personally, it bothers me

Education?

Can you give some info and pointers about the CS/IT/telecom education in India, especially at unversity level? I'm interested in how qualified the tech sector workers are in India.

• How many people graduate from a (technical) university on an average? (As a fraction of all people born a certain year, for example.)
• Does the government subsidize university-level education in any way, or is a degree only possible to attain only if you are rich enough? What does a M.Sc. or B.Sc. degree cost you?
• What are the most prominent higher-level education universities in the technology sector? Homepage URLs? Do they specialize in any particular fields of technology?
• What's the teaching like, compared to curriculums in Eurpoe or the US? Are certain subjects and fields emphasized more or less?
• Are there any major differences in teaching methods? (lectures, homework, group projects, tuition by teaching assistants, etc.)
• Are those Indians that have graduated abroad (say in the US) more respected than people who have graduated from an Indian university? That is, how well are foreign degrees appreciated within India?
• What is the employment outlook and status in tech-sector jobs in India? Are many graduated engineers unemployed? Has the unemployment rate risen or fallen? What impact has the outsourcing of jobs to India had on the employment rates?

Simple question, but with an explanation: Why?

I passionately believe in racial equality and the global community, yet by posting this comment I fear I will be branded a racist. That is part of the problem. Foreign out-sourcing of tech jobs is difficult to discuss because there is always the possibility of genuine, objective criticisms being met with claims of racial prejudice.

I don't work in the tech sector but I have often dealt with Indian technicians who do technical support for a company that I am involved with. I have found the quality of their work to be consistently poor. Specifically:

1. Basic computer knowledge is lacking.

Worst example: A simple hardware problem (insufficient air circulation due to a blocked fan) was twice diagnosed as a software failure and the computer owner was instructed to back-up 40+ Gb of data on to CDRs, format his hard drive and reinstall XP. Remember, this happened *twice*. When the first reinstallation didn't fix the problem, he was told to do exactly the same thing again. (Obviously without the back-ups.)

2. Poor communications skills.

Not just poor English but fundamental communication failings, such as not listening properly and not making any apparent attempt to understand.

I was in a situation last year when an Indian tech support person decided that to disgnose a faulty hard-drive I must follow his instructions for dismantling my own PC. He wanted every component unplugged, removed, and then re-assembled. I tried to follow his instructions but he used left/right and front/back interchangeably, as if there were no difference in meaning, and after half an hour of nervously removing components I was starting to feel a bit out of my depth. If we went much further I wasn't confident that I'd be able to put everything back together so I stopped there. I re-assembled the PC and decided to buy a new hard-drive even though the faulty one was still under warranty.

So my question to Indian tech workers would be:

In my experience, over several years and dealing with dozens of different tech support people, I have found that Indian staff are significantly less knowledgeable, less helpful and overall less good at their jobs. With the obvious exception of cheaper labour, is there one single reason why Indian workers should have these jobs?

Organised Crime

Have you, or do you know of people who have been approached to gain unauthorized access to a company or provide corporate information for a fee?

If you where offered 3 times your normal annual salary to provide a copy of a database or other information from a US company would you do it?

Situations such as this are just now starting to come to light as illistrated in this [hackerintel.com] article.

- Nicholas

Here is one question for you guys (out here)

Why is it okay to have years and years of "free trade" where every country is
coaxed, forced, badgered, bombed into succumbing an still when the same
free trade by the virtue of its definition turns around in one particular instance
there is so much insecurity, so much fear and so much FUD ?

Is it okay to export almost everything you can think of from genetic seeds to WMDs
to third world under tremondous pressure but when they can do a small job
better than you guys you start screaming bloody murder?

Have you all ever stopped and considered why there is so much terrorism in
middle east but why India has grown relatively peaceful (inspite of america's
staunch support to the biggest terrorist neighbour of India that it conviniently
turns a blind eye to while children are taught to hate america in their early
days at holy-schools)?

have you wondered that if you stop looking at the world like the British did,
a place to plunder, loot and exploit maybe, just maybe, the terrorism would
stop since people will have decent meals to eat and your own kids dont
have to get blown into pieces in Iraq so Bush can bask in glory, while
he re-defines marriage so he can deny basic rights to half the people ?

Wake up folks.

Geek culture in India?

In the U.S., there is something of a geek subculture which Slashdot in particular caters to. Obviously, not all programmers are true geeks at heart, but among the people in America who are really fascinated by computers, you have a greatly disproportionate number who are into science fiction, RPGs/LARPs, Lord of the Rings, Legos, Anime, etc.

Does this apply in India as well? Would, say, a Unix systems programmer there typically have such things as interests? If not, are there analogous hobbies that distinguish the Indian geek from everyone else?

Re:Geek culture in India?

Experiment_626, Let me attempt to answer this question for you. Education gets very high priority in India. Achievements for teenagers in India means academic achievements. Most Hindus are brought up worshipping the Goddess of learning. While this may mean nothing on the surface, it is my belief that subliminally, it gives importance to education by raising it to a divine level. Science and math fascinate a lot of kids. It is not a subculture. It is mainstream culture out in India. Pursuing science is the #1 choice. Liberal arts and commerce related streams get lower priority in India. Science and those pursuing science get a lot of respect. Consider this fact. When a radio channel in Britain conducted a poll to determine who the greatest Briton was, the British voted for Diana. Indians voted for Newton. I also see a lot of hostility everywhere in USA towards Indians. I feel sad for a lot of Americans but it is wrong to distinguish people by their race and brand them as people stealing jobs. For me, there is only one human race and I hope no individual has to suffer. I am dismayed to see that those who were extolling the virtues of free-market have suddenly decided that Stalinist ideas are the best! Such double standards are unacceptable.

Cheating in Indian Colleges?

Is cheating still widespread in Colleges in India? I ask this because in 2002 the GRE was canceled in that region due to very high levels of cheating.

Customer Service

A lot of people have already mentioned these facts but I thought I'd put it in a different light.

In your work as a "contracted employee" do you feel that you are providing the best customer service given the fact that English may be a second language for you, and that there might be a language gap?

Also, since the U.S. has such a strict laws regarding the export of its software, that you might not have the same version of the software as the folks whose work you are doing, or the people that you are helping, do you feel that it might hamper your ability to provide the best customer service?

-Goran

VA's push for Outsourcing

Do you find VA software a strategic partner in your outsourcing ("offshoring") efforts? Did you know that they were a "relatively early adopter" of providing services to aid in this task?

Do you find it amusing that they try to stir up emotions by posting offshoring stories on slashdot to increase ad revenue from those hit hardest from outsourcing? Many readers voice their hatred of the act and are infact boosting the revenue of a company whose survival rests on the increased move of jobs to foriegn countries.

Do you consider VA Software to be a respectable organization?

VA Software Provides Better Governance For Offshore Outsourcing [vasoftware.com]
VA Software Uses Own 'Offshoring' Experience to Tune Flagship Product for Hot Growth Market [oocenter.com]

Hypocracy

My Q:

Given that the US has reaped the benefit of capitalism for hundreds of years which has seen them (and the rest of the first world) exploit the third world ruthlessly, do you not find it hypocrytical that US IT workers are now complaining about receiving 'the back of the invisible hand'?

Raising required minimum pay standards

Okay, I have heard many ideas "cloaked in fairness" actually intended to shut down the notion of H1-B visas.

Why do companies want to use them? Simple-- to save money. It's never been a mystery despite how people want to lie about it. The desire to outsource? It's the same reason: "The Bottom-line."

So while I have read in previous articles that Indian IT workers actually argue that it's not the pay-cost-savings, but the quality of the work that is winning large contracts in India. So I would like an honest bit of feedback on this burning question:

If the U.S. lawmakers were pushed to write legislation that requires that outsourced labor earn 10% over American "fair-market" wages, would that be something you could get behind? Or if you think 10% more is too much for better quality, how about Equal to American "fair-market" wages for the same work? If you think that such law would threaten your current employment status, I think the argument about "quality" doesn't quite pass the acid test.

Sure, this is an embittered question, but it's one that demands honesty rather than a whole lot of flag waving. I think it's great for India and Pakistan that they have a resource that is working for them -- their people. I think it's great that thousands of people are rising above the poverty line! I want global economic improvement just as much as the next guy and possibly even more. But I don't think it requires that the U.S. economy suffers in order to improve another part of the world.

In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that any benefit that requires the failure of the U.S. economy would do so much more to harm the global economy that any improvement to other parts of the world wouldn't be enough to balance it all out and we'd be looking at a global economic crisis.

To illustrate my point, look at what happened to the entire Asian economy when Japan was going through its banking crisis. When the economic super-power that is Japan was suffering, it threatened not only to reduce it to ruins but to take all of asia down with it.

Consider that the U.S. currently holds the largest international consumer base in teh world. We buy stuff from EVERYWHERE ... I'd go do far as to say stuff from everywhere EXCEPT here. (READ: Trade deficit) What happens to the global economy when our consumers can no longer afford to buy stuff? The rest of the supplying world will suffer threatening global ruin to all nations who depend on exports to the U.S.

So not only are we taking U.S. dollars all but completely out of U.S. circulation in the U.S. never to return (because who BUYS anything from the U.S.? We're in a trade deficit with almost every nation we trade with!) buy buying labor overseas, but we're losing jobs in the U.S. which results in decreased buying power of our consumers!

This is no longer merely a threat of trading off our manufacturing and buying more from overseas, but this is a situation that has the potential of destroying our consumer base which would ultimately crash the world economy as far as countries supplying manufactured goods to the U.S.

Caste in India!

Hi, I am Indian and it seems some people are interested to know about the caste system in India. I will provide some information and comparison to give you a good idea.

These are the facts:

1. Does caste system exists in India?
-Yes. But these days its probably more of an economic class system than caste system. There are rich, middle class and poor. This is the modern day caste system of India! And its no diffferent from what you have in US.

2. Are lower castes discriminated against?
-Yes ocassionally. Discrimination exists in every society and we judge a society based on their ability and intention to stop it. In that way, India and US is no different.

3. How does India deal with the problem?
- There are laws against caste discrimination. Besides India invented and implemented the strongest affirmative action program in the world. It was actually done before the time (1947)when lynching was a fair practice in American south. The affirmative action program is strictly implemented everywhere like higher education, jobs etc. In some states where lower caste population is high the quotas in education and jobs can be as high as 75%!!!

4. Do lower caste people live in ghettoes?
-Sometimes communities are segregated but in urban areas its not that way. There is no Indian equivalent of racially segreated communities in the US. Anyone can live anywhere and you cant tell a persons caste by appearance:)

5. Do lower castes have political power?
-They have enormous political power. India has many state chief ministers (governor) belonging to the lowest caste. India had many lower caste Presidents, Vice-presidents and prime minister too! Lower caste people are the largest voting population and since we are a true democracy, usually the lower caste people have proportionate political representation. We do not have a two-party system. There are hundreds of political parties in India and we need that to properly represent our enormously diverse population. (BTW, right now our president is a Muslim, prime minister a hindu and defense minister a christian! Its not related to caste though)

6. Are lower caste people (dalits) forced to do horrible jobs?
-This is the most common myth perpetrated in the western world. No one is forced to do anything! But, many lower caste people who are also poor tend to do janitorial jobs and other jobs that nobody wants to do. Many lower caste/dalit people in India are also illiterate and lack skills. So, many of them end up taking family profession. But their situations are improving rapidly. Indian govt for the past 55 years has been trying to undo the results of several hundreds of years of discrimination and we are doing it peacefully. We did not have to fight a civil war to eliminate the evils of our society. Its interesting to note that bad jobs are usually taken care of by immigrants and minorities in the US. You might as well call it caste system of the US. (let me know when you see a non-hispanic janitor!)

7. Do lower caste people have equal opportunities in education?
-Yes. There is nothing like school district in India. Anyone can attend any school. So even poor people can share good public schools with rich people. We dont force our poor population to live in bad neighborhoods and poor school districts. Poverty and richness coexist in India and its fairly common to see a slum and a mansion side by side! We dont believe in hiding our poverty in the inner-cities and urban ghettoes and condemn those people to perputal cycle of violence, poverty and lack of education. Actually we show our poverty to everyone else and we are proud the way we are dealing with it...(The Brits left us in 1947 with 90% people living in poverty with a life expectancy of 35 years. In 50 years we managed to cut down the poverty to 25% with life expectancy of 67 years!) There are rich kids going to good private schools. But there are plenty of good public schools for everyone. Most Indians working in IT are not rich people. They are ordinary

Treatment to Americans?

How are immigrants from America / Europe treated? (With specific regard to race and religion)

Are they met with the same unfair prejudices we treat our immigrants with?

Apart from the language barrier, what are the biggest changes an American would need to make to his/her lifestyle if he were to move to India?

Finally, are there even many immigrants?

Re:Questions...

I'm assuming this is not a serious post...

1. How's it feel being detested by most of an entire industry back in the US of A (with the exception of the bean counters) ?

I'm a developer in the US, and I still have my job, but I'm having a hard time finding a software job in the geographic area where I want to move. But I don't detest the Indian people, nor do I feel that they've "stolen a job" from me. They're people like us. They want to make a living, they want to provide for themselves and their families, they want what most of us want. Jobs are available, and they're taking them. It's not like they're gathering together in some secret clubhouse buried under a cavern in the Himalayas and plotting how to make Americans' lives miserable. The reason this is happening is because of globalization, and personally, I still haven't decided if I think it's a good thing or not. I'm not going to have the knee-jerk reaction of "Of course it's bad", because the fact is, monetarily speaking, one of me is worth about four top-notch Indian developers. At the same time, though, enrollment in CS and engineering in US schools is plummeting, with the exception of foreign students. Globalization is great until relations break down between us and the country where our talent pool lives.

So speaking as an American programmer whose current livelihood is threatened by globalization, I can say that I hold no grudge against India, Russia, China, or any other country whose citizens are no less human than I am, and whose governments have the same capacity for corruption as my own. My job is marginally safer, since I work for a defense contractor. But it's just a matter of time before my job goes away too, and I'm willing to change careers if I have to. Sure, I could rail against India and American CEOs and bean counters, but that won't put food on my table.

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