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Interview Responses From BitTorrent's Bram Cohen

Posted by Roblimo on Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:00 AM
from the download-popular-ISOs-without-waiting dept.
Here we go... direct questions and direct answers about BitTorrent, the latest big-time P2P file distribution system to hit the Internet. Bram Cohen made BitTorrent and maintains it, and perhaps, one day, just maybe, he'll even make a living from it...

1) Bit-Torrent browsing... by CashCarSTAR

Has any effort/thought been put towards bit torrent page distribution?

Specifically, a way that one can use BT to mirror webpages. A way to get around the /. effect, and as well would work wonders the next emergency that comes out (see 9/11).

Bram:

Images in web pages are very small and require very low latency. BitTorrent is designed for much larger files, which download on the order of minutes or hours rather than seconds. BitTorrent uses the significant amount of time those downloads take to try out and compare different connections. This process has inherent latencies which make it unsuitable for images on web pages.

Certainly it would beis possible on paper to dramatically reduce the cost of hosting an ordinary web site using peer transfers, but the logistical problems of handling many small files at low latency have yet to be solved, and will probably require a protocol which looks significantly different from BitTorrent.

2) Forward successful download stats to originators... by gsfprez

Many freeware/shareware folks like to keep download stats for marketing purposes, so P2P software and mirrors really irk them....

In order to foster more love from freeware/shareware distributors, could BitTorrent be made to inform the end user (me) that BitTorrent was going to send a "notice of download" (not including any personal information, such as an IP, etc) upon sucessful download (that I could preview before sending of course)?

If *I* was Warner Bros, and eveyone offered to distribute and pay for all the bandwidth for the next version of the Animatrix, while I still got to see download statistics, i'm not sure I'd even would need to provide a direct link to the 150 meg QuickTime files.

With this kind of feedback mechanism, the software/media providers get all the love - download stats, far far far less bandwidth used - and we get all the goodness - their free movies, software, freeware, data, etc. Its the ultimate mirror.

Or am i missing something?

Bram:

I'm happy to report that you are, in fact, missing something. Clients report very detailed statistics to the BitTorrent tracker, including the number of complete downloads and the total amount each peer uploaded and downloaded. If you host a file using your own tracker, all of this data is readily accessible, the same as if you hosted it via http.

By the way, many people find out about tracker statistics reporting and falsely think that hacking their client to exaggerate their upload rate will increase download speeds. Clients actually decide who to upload to based strictly on the transfer rates they experience directly; Tracker statistics are never even sent to them.

3) Comparison to other P2P... by jfmiller

As far as I can tell the genius of BitTorrent is allowing peers who themselves do not yet have a complete file to share the parts they do. With all dew respect to the effort taken, the rest is just functional glue that allows the system to work as it should.

The eDonkey protocol used the same basic premise. How is BitTorrent different to it and other P2P protocols and why did you make that choice?

Bram:

That 'functional glue' is extraordinarily difficult to get to work well. Ever-changing network conditions and very high rates of peers disconnecting produce a very thorny logistical problem. Most existing swarming implementations don't even manage to fully utilize all the upload capacity available to them.

That said, there are other decent swarming implementations. For example, the one in eDonkey is quite serviceable, and Furthurnet's works okay as well. BitTorrent handles the little details of file transfer better than all of the others, but if that were the only difference its advantage would be relatively minor and subtle.

What sets BitTorrent apart is its very robust technique for rewarding specifically the peers which upload the most, known as leech resistance. On the highest level, this prevents a long-term meltdown of the system from being caused by people running leeching clients. It also causes upload and download rates to be somewhat correlated, so peers on good pipes get decent download rates, which increases general good feeling about how the system behaves. Overnet, the follow-on to eDonkey, may start using BitTorrent's peer protocol in the future specifically for the leech resistance properties.

By the way, people sometimes run clients hacked to not upload at all and still experience good download rates. Usually this is because they're downloading a file which has been available for a while and there are many clients which have finished downloading but been left running, so there's plenty of excess bandwidth to go around. Not uploading in a swarm which is still ramping up is generally ruinous for download rates.

4) Improvements... by BJH

Bram,

Do you have any plans for improvements to BitTorrent to improve some of its (few) weaknesses, such as searching for torrent files, bandwidth usage by trackers and inability to download if the tracker goes off the air?

Bram:

I have no plans to add search functionality, since that can be handled at a higher layer, such as google, and finding content via links is considerably more versatile and widespread than keyword searching anyway.

Bandwidth used by the tracker is currently around 1/1000 the total amount of bandwidth used. With some tweaking, I can get that down to around 1/10,000. Going lower than that would require sacrificing the tracker's ability to collect statistics, since those get significant at that scale.

Relying on a single tracker is really no different than relying on a single web site. Any well-colocated machine is plenty reliable enough, and if you really need failover you can do it at the DNS level.

4a) Re: Improvements... by ichimunki

I would like to refine this question because I have some specific nits that I'd like to pick: why doesn't the client/server open a single port and listen on that instead of opening a new port for each file? Second, why don't the peers maintain and share information about other peers once the download has started-- going through the central tracker provides a central point of failure. Wouldn't decentralizing allow for a .torrent file to have a list of seeds, and then each of the seeds would be able to share information about peers, eliminating the need for a tracker altoghether?

Bram:

Single port has been high on my list of things to do for a while now but keeps getting put off as more immediate concerns pop up. It mostly hasn't been done yet for a highly technical reason. The way BitTorrent currently shuts down is with a hack where the entire event loop is terminated; To support multiple downloads a cleaner technique which only stopped events and sockets related to a particular download which one of them terminates would be necessary. This is reasonably straightforward to implement, but requires a lot of surgery.

By the way, my mail load has made getting actual development done rather difficult as of late. I'm hoping to offset this with contributions from other developers. While there's been plenty of interest in contributing, and a significant amount of contribution to the tracker, to date noone other than me has made any significant changes to the core download functionality.

If anyone really wants to make a significant development contribution to BitTorrent, you should read over the codebase enough to understand it all (the irc channel can be helpful with this) then ask me what's on the to do list. I suggest you do not start implementing your own BitTorrent client. There are already several of those being worked on, and they're all very far from being as mature as the main line client. What's really needed is more development on the main branch.

5) Impending doom... by damu

Are you taking any precautions for your clash with the RIAA/MPAA?

Bram:

I don't expect to run into any legal trouble. BitTorrent can be used for any kind of content, and several web sites have used it for their own files. Also, all the etree usage (live show recordings of bands which permit it) is completely legal. BitTorrent's total bandwith usage would be quite substantial even if the etree distributions were all it was used for.

6) Future Considerations... by pgrote

Do you feel that BitTorrent's core functionality can one day be integrated in the operating system as a file system? The ability to share files among disparate systems in remote locations can be seen as extension of what was started with HTML, et. al.

Bram:

No. BitTorrent's API is one of starting a download and later being notified that the whole download is complete. File system APIs very specifically involve open(), seek(), read() and write(), which are completely different and wholly incompatible with the way BitTorrent works.

The same is true of http by the way. Attempting to make certain protocols act like local file file system access is kludgy at best, both as a literal concept and as a metaphor.

7) Panhandling for internet dollars... by Matey-O

You've got a paypal dontation button to help compensate you for your non-trivial expenditure of time...how well is that working? Is it an adequate revenue stream, or just enough for a pizza or two?

Bram:

So far, more than a pizza, but less than a living. The donations definitely help though.

8) Re: most obvious question... by Noksagt

...what do you think of what people have done with what you have created. I'm sure you might be sick of people asking you how to obtain a torrent for the latest movie, but are you troubled that it is being used for copyright infringement? Pleased? Apathetic?

Do you wish that it was used more for distributing legal ISOs and other files? If so, do you believe you should promote it more for this purpose or promote development of tools to push it in this direction (perhaps automatic creation of torrents on a successful build, etc.).

Bram:

I'm amused mostly. I find humans highly entertaining.

My attempts to promote BitTorrent for any specific purpose basically failed. It's grown almost entirely through guerilla marketing. That said, I'm hoping that in the future BitTorrent starts being used directly by content producers to distribute their own works.

9) Success... by pgrote

BitTorrent has seen a wide array of usage since it debuted. Many have been surprising and it has caught the fire that makes sofwtare a success. How do you personally measure the success of BitTorrent? Has it achieved the goals you first set?

Bram:

I generally measure software success by how many machines it's deployed on. In that sense BitTorrent has done very well, but it will probably become much more widespread as publishers make their content available using it. My current hope is that BitTorrent will one day be installed on almost all end user machines.

10) Commercial Interest... by Noksagt

I think that bittorrent can be of significant commercial interest. It might be used for software updates for instance. Have you pursued this path or have companies approached you? I certainly hope you'd keep a free version available, but a more feature-rich version would surely land you a great deal of money with the right pitch.

Bram:

So far there hasn't been much commercial interest, but I expect that to change now that large deployments have proven the technology so dramatically.

Starting a business is very tempting. BitTorrent has the potential to create such incredible amounts of value that if I manage to make even a tiny fraction of that I could do very well.

-----

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  • My question... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Davak (526912) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:04AM (#6095930)
    (http://www.carotids.com/)
    My question would have been...

    How do you feel about slashdot crushing every torrent web site and tracker everytime it runs a story on your program?

    Davak
    • Re:My question... by Angry White Guy (Score:1) Monday June 02 2003, @10:07AM
    • Re:My question... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Davak (526912) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:20AM (#6096036)
      (http://www.carotids.com/)
      I don't know how an honest question regarding bittorrent can be considered offtopic...

      Anyway... do any of you torrent gurus know how to change a tracker? For example, say you have 80 .torrent files and the tracker goes down. How do you easily change the tracker to a different one? Is this possible?

      Viewing the plain text of the .torrent file... I might think it would be possible. Of course, if I understood the .torrent format I wouldn't be asking...

      Quote:
      d8:announce37:http://f.scarywater.net:8080/annou nc e4:infod5:filesld6:lengthi167e4:pathl15:MD5SUMS-ft p.md5eed6:lengthi668991488e4:pathl21:shrike-i386-d isc1.isoeed6:lengthi677511168e4:pathl21:shrike-i38 6-disc2.isoeed6:lengthi508592128e4:pathl21:shrike- i386-disc3.isoeee4:name7:redhat912:piece lengthi1048576e6:pieces35400:
      End Quote

      After this prelude of text, the rest of the .torrent file can not be understood in plain text.

      Can this plain text be edited so all the tracker files not have to be rebuilt?

      Davak
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:My question... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Jasin Natael (14968) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:37AM (#6096162)
      (http://www.jyopp.com/)
      My question is for Slashdot: Since hosting a torrent requires (as Bram states) about 1/1,000th, and in the future as little as 1/10,000th of the total bandwidth for the torrent, why can't /. just make a torrent server available for members to download new ISO's, free software, and large movies (re: Animatrix, etc.)? All it'd take is one monitor page and (maybe) an automated e-Mail script to keep content providers up-to-date on the downloads. And I can tell you for SURE, most of the sites that /. links to would appreciate having their Star Trek parodies, ISO's, and stop-motion LEGO animations mirrored... Be courteous, /.

      Jasin Natael
      [ Parent ]
    • "Not really all that amusing, since Torrentse's been down since it got Slashdotted. Congratulations to all the guys who linked to it from here - you've destroyed the best torrent site out there."

      Torrentse is down because they are moving to a new server. There was a post about this from the person who runs torrentse in the last story about bittorrent. (I believe it was the story where you could post questions to be used in Bram's interview.)

      [ Parent ]
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Distributed answers? (Score:5, Funny)

    by stevey (64018) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:06AM (#6095944)
    (http://ctrl-alt-date.com/)

    Normally the slashdot interviewees take a long time to answer their questions, (I'm not complaining as the candidates are normally very busy people), but this one seems like it was much quicker than any recent one.

    Perhaps he distributed the answering of the questions?

  • Queue the whiners (Score:5, Insightful)

    by coupland (160334) * <dchase@hot m a i l . c om> on Monday June 02 2003, @10:07AM (#6095947)
    (Last Journal: Wednesday November 01 2006, @03:06PM)

    one day, just maybe, he'll even make a living from it...

    Bram hopes to make a living off code that he wrote that the community seems to really like? Queue the peanut gallery with cries of "sell-out" and "greed" and random smatterings of the words "corporate" and "freedom". I've not used BT extensively but what little I've seen impressed me immensely. Hopefully he can turn it into something that funds its own improvements, and if he's lucky to help pay some bills as well.

    • Re:Queue the whiners by TopShelf (Score:3) Monday June 02 2003, @10:21AM
      • Re:Queue the whiners (Score:4, Insightful)

        by cduffy (652) <charles+slashdot@NOSpAm.dyfis.net> on Monday June 02 2003, @11:29AM (#6096593)
        Dunno -- I like Free Software. I'm willing to pay for good software -- especially good Free Software. There's not necessarily a contradiction; one can donate to the authors, pay for consulting services to get new features written or bugs squashed faster, or buy Free Software outright (and then, necessarily, have the rights to redistribute and modify it).

        FWIW, my last employer (MontaVista Software) made (and makes) good money of selling Free Software and services to support it. My current employer is also willing to pay for free software -- they pay me to support all the Free Software that their products and their desktop environment depends on. (No, they're not radical enlightened management types, they just want someone around who knows Linux backwards and forwards and can debug Tomcat and Apache and GNOME and fix any bugs we run into that the authors won't).
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Queue the whiners by Jack William Bell (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @11:57AM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Queue the whiners (Score:4, Insightful)

        by maxpublic (450413) on Monday June 02 2003, @01:39PM (#6097941)
        (http://slashdot.org/)
        The 'free software' crowd are a bunch of whining idiots who insist that the rest of us write code while living out of dumpsters in order to satisfy their vision of How Things Should Be(TM).

        The 'open source' crowd - which I'm a part of, mostly out of paranoia - recognizes that software can be worth paying for even if it's GPL'd. For example, I've purchased copy after copy of SuSe and Redhat distributions, even though there's absolutely no reason I would *have* to do this (and as a programmer, I don't need support, so I have no incentive to purchase in order to get support). Why? In part out of laziness (box, manuals, CDs) and in part because I think the product is worth money.

        Being something of an optimist, I think most people in this arena are 'open source' and not 'free software'. Which means that Bram might very well make a bundle. In fact, whether or not he did make a bundle would go a long way to proving or disproving my belief.

        Max
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Queue the whiners (Score:5, Funny)

        by larry bagina (561269) on Monday June 02 2003, @11:35AM (#6096645)
        (Last Journal: Friday October 19, @09:21PM)
        Yeah Right. Free as in Herpes.
        [ Parent ]
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Queue the whiners by daves (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @10:31AM
    • Re:Queue the whiners (Score:5, Interesting)

      by FroMan (111520) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:47AM (#6096226)
      (http://www.crazydays.org/ | Last Journal: Thursday December 06, @12:31PM)
      I think this is the part of OSS that could be refered to as karma. You make a good piece of software, people know about it, other people hire you to make sure cool products like this make it out more often.

      I have to agree with you. Good luck to Bram.

      I've only used it once now. When I dl'd the release of enemy territory I had corruption in the file from some regular dl site. While reading slashdot someone mentioned having the same problem and someone pointed BT to the corrupted file lo-and-behold it fixed the file for me.

      I was impressed. I think I'll be trying BT more often now though.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Queue the whiners by timeOday (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @01:49PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Bittorrent 3.2.2a for Mac OS X is at long last released but it is not advertised on the main bittorrent site.

    Go here to get it http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/bittorrent/ [sourceforge.net]

  • Why Python? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dubious9 (580994) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:14AM (#6095991)
    (Last Journal: Friday June 11 2004, @11:45AM)
    The question I missed the most was when someone asked why he wrote in python, or more importantly why he has sayed with Python. Bram states that python is his favorite language, but I don't remember him saying if he thought it was the most appropriate one.

    If bittorrent ever get modified to server much smaller objects, like html pages and gif and jpegs, then the ton of trakers needed would see a big improvement if written in a compiled lanuage or even java (though I hear a java version is in the works). It would have been interesting to hear from his point of view though.
    • Re:Why Python? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Hard_Code (49548) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:28AM (#6096099)
      "though I hear a java version is in the works"

      Shhh...

      http://www.klomp.org/snark/

      With the addition of an event listener API, this could be integrated into a decent Java GUI client. Right now it seems as if it is only command line.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Why Python? (Score:4, Informative)

        by Anonymous Canard (594978) on Monday June 02 2003, @11:08AM (#6096418)
        There are several ports to other languages underway, including my own work on libbt [sf.net], a C-language implementation intended to be suitable for use as a library.
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Why Python? by Graspee_Leemoor (Score:1) Tuesday June 03 2003, @12:04AM
    • Re:Why Python? (Score:5, Insightful)

      From when the questions were asked, Jamie wrote this message [slashdot.org]:

      "He already answered this to a large extent, in an essay on Advogato, How to Write Maintainable Code [advogato.com].
      'My favorite language for maintainability is Python. It has simple, clean syntax, object encapsulation, good library support, and optional named parameters.'"
      I think that the best language is the one that he can maintain, understand, and use. Sure if it was written in pure assembly it would be faster, but it's a bitch to maintain. The clients work reasonably well. I've never had the official client crash on me. It works up to a fairly large scale with decent hardware and bandwidth.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Why Python? by mikeee (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @10:50AM
    • Why not Python? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by umoto (19193) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:52AM (#6096277)
      (http://hathawaymix.org/Weblog)
      This application is highly I/O-bound, not CPU-bound, so raw processing speed is not a factor. It only has to be "fast enough", which it is. The things that do matter are things Python is good at:

      - Security. This is a server, so buffer overflows and memory allocation errors are not acceptable.

      - Readability. Bram expressed a strong interest in getting more developers involved, making readability essential.

      - Platform neutrality.

      Other languages cover some of these requirements too, of course. But Python is a great choice.

      As for reducing the slashdot effect using a distributed mechanism, I'd like to see something like this: Slashdot runs a BitTorrent server and provides a "package" for every story. Users run a small local HTTP server that fetches web pages from Slashdot story packages, downloaded via BitTorrent. Slashdot lets users set a preference that converts all front page URLs to fetch from the local HTTP server instead of the real site.

      The net effect is Slashdot provides a "cache" without actually using up bandwidth. We wouldn't even have to change the BitTorrent protocol. Slashdotters unite! ;-)
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Why not Python? by dubious9 (Score:3) Monday June 02 2003, @11:45AM
        • Python standalones (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Fencepost (107992) * on Monday June 02 2003, @12:06PM (#6096898)
          (Last Journal: Friday May 21 2004, @09:28AM)
          There are actually several ways to make standalone executables of Python programs; the one I use is Gordon McMillan's Installer [mcmillan-inc.com], which basically packages up the needed DLLs, libraries, etc. and puts on an exectuable wrapper. It's cross-platform, though not unreasonably you have to compile on Windows to get a Windows exe and on your other platforms to get executables for those. There are others compiling options, the linked page includes a nice list of them with summaries.

          Python can also be fairly well optimized; I have a strong suspicion that the slashdotting of trackers is more a bandwidth issue than a processing capacity issue. It's also quite possible (caveat: I haven't read the code yet) that the internal structure placed a higher priority on readability and maintainability than on processing efficiency - I know I've written server applications using that approach, because I'd rather spend an extra $500 on hardware upgrades if more power is needed than an extra $5000 later on additional maintenance, debugging and testing.

          Finally, on the issue of speed: a lot of what a tracker does involves managing lists, hash tables, etc. - the type of thing that's built into Python and highly-optimized. It's like someone's discovery when VB5 or VB6 came out that a VB program was faster at some tasks than a corresponding C++ program, because all the processing was being done using very heavily optimized builtins - if you're running a relatively inefficient scripting language but using it to call highly-optimized native code, you may not see the performance degradation that you might expect.

          [ Parent ]
        • Re:Why not Python? (Score:5, Funny)

          by Bingo Foo (179380) on Monday June 02 2003, @01:41PM (#6097964)
          A snowflake wieghs next to nothing but snow can collapse a house.

          Ah, grasshopper, it takes 30 kiloliters of air to fill a room but only 30 milliliters of fart to empty a room.

          [ Parent ]
        • You're missing the bottleneck point by billstewart (Score:2) Tuesday June 03 2003, @07:43PM
      • Re:Why not Python? by Darth Yoshi (Score:1) Monday June 02 2003, @11:50AM
    • Re:Why Python? by gstein (Score:1) Monday June 02 2003, @10:53AM
    • Re:Why Python? by deblau (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @11:41AM
    • Re:Why Python? by ikewillis (Score:1) Monday June 02 2003, @12:20PM
    • Yeah, I'm feeding the troll by fizbin (Score:3) Monday June 02 2003, @10:54AM
    • Why do I respond to trolls? by dubious9 (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @11:49AM
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Advice to Bram on making money (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ites (600337) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:14AM (#6095993)
    (Last Journal: Thursday March 31 2005, @11:31AM)
    You will be able to make good money from BT if you package the technology in such a way that commercial interests can use it.

    My advice would be to license the source code under the GPL for OSS projects, and additionally under a commercial license for businesses.

    Provide BT technology for incorporation into random commercial products. Resell your consulting skills at a good rate. Train others to be able to do the same. With licensing and consulting fees, you will do nicely.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 02 2003, @10:31AM (#6096123)
      I'm sorry, but BitTorrent's interface is just too streamlined and efficient for widespread corporate adoption. The installer doesn't even have a wizard, for cripes sake - it just whirs the disk and says it installed successfully! And where are all the built in gewgaws like a half-finished Help system, the fifty bazillion conflicting menus, the insanely bloated and contradictory Preferences dialog? I'm afraid your understanding of commercial software is sorely outdated. After all, look at all the new BT users who can't seem to wrap their heads around how either the client or the protocol work, precisely because they're so simple? Call me back when you've got something as bog-slow as Groove [groove.net] and we can talk percentages...

      -ololiuhqui

      only being semi-sarcastic

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Advice to Bram on making money by julesh (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @10:44AM
    • This is not an advice by apankrat (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @11:27AM
    • Re:Advice to Bram on making money by rmohr02 (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @11:36AM
    • Re:Advice to Bram on making money by DraconPern (Score:1) Monday June 02 2003, @12:48PM
  • *just* functional glue (Score:5, Informative)

    Ward Cunningham's Wiki [c2.com] on Patterns has an interesting page [c2.com] on the attitude of referring to details as *just* details.

    Very often, the person saying "Oh you just did it this way" has some more learning to do.
  • A good project. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Buzz_Litebeer (539463) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:19AM (#6096032)
    (Last Journal: Friday October 01 2004, @08:18AM)
    A good project for someone to use, is to have the corporate version where the main corporate site can have the file as a bittorrent, and always be serving it. If it cant find any other clients, it uses the corporate file LAST to download from.

    this way the first few people on the thing would be getting it from the corporate client, then after that from other peers, but then when the file becomes unpopular, people would then basically be getting it from the corporate client again.

    This would a little improvement. Though this may just show my ignorance of how bittorrent works as well. Currently I download some files using bittorrent (wolfenstein enemy territories) but when all the seeds go away it can cause issues.

    So basically make it so that there is a relatively permanent seed, and he is always requested from LAST. that way if the file is popular the site doesnt have to worry about losing bandwidth.

    also, stats tracking should be "ramped up" a little, to where someone would have to register to use the torrents on a specific site, this way the tracking per user could be used. Now this wouldnt interfere with anyones right to privacy, but could be used as a "bonus" system, to provide incentive to keep the torrent open. IE the more you upload the more "credit" you are given. If you think of it in slashdot subscriber terms, perhaps people that have a high "credit" (ie they leave their client open after being finished) would get earlier access to files. maybe have a 3 teir file access. top teir (high uploaders) would get the file as soon as it was served. second teir would get at it 20 minutes later, and 3rd teir get it 45 minutes to an hour later.

    this would allow sites to reward those that are high quality users, and maybe allow them to track site benefits based on participation.

    maybe call it "sitetorrent" or such.

    and this is actually an original idea i thought of trying to get some freinds of mine and myself to code 2 years ago, but I had neither the experience nor the time to work on it. Then someone showed me bittorrent about 2 months ago and I was like "holy shit thats exactly what my product was going to be sans user participation" ;-) oh well, bittorrent rocks!

    Oh, and you cant steal my idea, i provide it free to the public today 6/2/03, as a business application given freely and documented.

    Buzz OUT!
    • by Reedo (234996) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:48AM (#6096238)
      I run a tracker that hosts a number of game related files (here [gametab.com]) and have a "headless downloader" for each one. That is, you run btdownloadheadless.py on a .torrent on your server and let it continue running. You can set the max upload speed, etc, so that it doesn't use up your entire pipe. It acts as if it's just another seed/client.

      What I do is put the source file onto the server, create the .torrent, then start a downloader on that with a max upload of 100 - 200k/sec. That ensures that there is always at least one seed for each file, and it helps provide some additional upload bandwidth. I am surprised more trackers don't do this, even if they just set the max upload at 5k/sec or something it would help a lot.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:A good project. (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Kredal (566494) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:58AM (#6096334)
      (http://www.kredal.com/ | Last Journal: Sunday August 11 2002, @01:57AM)
      TVTorrents.com does this now. To download a .torrent, you have to be registered. Once your main download is going, it keeps track of bytes uploaded and downloaded, and if you're leeching or seeding. You gain points for uploading, and 1.5 times as many for seeding. You lose points for downloading. I don't know if it's enabled yet, but the plan is to not let you download if your point total drops below 0.

      The site is having processing power issues, but seems to be holding up "ok". It's a great place to get some good shows from, though.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:A good project. by Chatterton (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @11:54AM
    • Re:A good project. by evilviper (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @07:59PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • RIAA/MPAA (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mjmalone (677326) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:22AM (#6096054)
    (http://www.vino2vino.com/)

    "I don't expect to run into any legal trouble. BitTorrent can be used for any kind of content, and several web sites have used it for their own files"

    This hasn't seemed to stop them in the past... The RIAA even admitted that at least 15% of Napster use was legal, more than the amount of legal use they admitted in the betamax case...

    I think he should start saving up those paypal donations fo the legal fund because in all likelyhood he is going to need it!

    • Re:RIAA/MPAA by Sinus0idal (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @10:42AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:RIAA/MPAA (Score:5, Insightful)

      by xchino (591175) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:42AM (#6096193)
      Napster was a very different case...

      1.> Napster has a cetralized server and thus could be fingered as the point of distribution.

      2.> The big deal behind bittorrent is not the software, it is the open protocol. There are already several, IMHO better clients and servers out there. Even if they went after Bram, they couldn't shut the protocol down. This isn't like kazaa.

      This certainly doesn't mean they won't be going after him anyways, but it does give him a set of legs in court. Napster lost because of it's accountability. Kazaa has so far won because of the lack of accountability.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:RIAA/MPAA (Score:4, Insightful)

        by mjmalone (677326) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:52AM (#6096272)
        (http://www.vino2vino.com/)
        I agree, but all I am saying is his comment makes me think he is not preparing for any sort of legal battle. This is quite stupid, since he did not just write a protocol, but a server and client pair that used a protocol, and that server/client pair is being used to distribute copyrighted materials, and he KNOWS this. The RIAA legal team might not have a legal leg to stand on, but there is a good chance they will try to sue anyways, and court fees are expensive no matter how the trial ends up.
        [ Parent ]
        • Re:RIAA/MPAA by Arslan ibn Da'ud (Score:1) Monday June 02 2003, @12:18PM
        • Re:RIAA/MPAA by mabinogi (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @07:19PM
          • Re:RIAA/MPAA by hkmwbz (Score:2) Tuesday June 03 2003, @03:49AM
  • apt-get (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Debian Troll's Best (678194) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:23AM (#6096066)
    (Last Journal: Wednesday January 28 2004, @09:49PM)

    my sources in the community tell me that the apt-get guys are busy incorporating P2P into the latest version of apt-get in order to extend the availability of rare debian packages and to lessen the load on the central debian servers, which are frequently crashing under their present heavy load.

    • Re:apt-get (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 02 2003, @10:47AM (#6096223)
      Yes, it's true.

      if you apt-get the latest apt-get beta (assuming you have apt-get in the first place :) and libBitTorrent, apt-get will check for other peers that are downloading the files, and share from them.

      BTW - the central server is frequently crashing due to kernel panics. Ingo is looking into the problem with the token buffer allocation scheme, but it may also be hardware problems with the eMachines we use.

      [ Parent ]
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • sarting a business (Score:5, Funny)

    by larry bagina (561269) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:30AM (#6096109)
    (Last Journal: Friday October 19, @09:21PM)
    I don't see any way for a BitTorrent business to be profitable. Maybe 5 years ago, when you could IPO before determining step 2 (????), but not now.


    Unless, of course, he has a hot 15 year-old daughter that wears skimpy clothes and says, "I'm Bitty. Share me!". Aimster/Madster probably patented that business model, though.

    • Re:sarting a business (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Jerf (17166) on Monday June 02 2003, @11:31AM (#6096604)
      (Last Journal: Saturday August 18 2001, @11:04AM)
      The profit model for BitTorrent is to sell the technology, with support and probable customizations, to sites serving huge files all the time, saving them money on bandwidth, and some of that could then be given to Bram instead. Unlike most .com businesses which had an idea and software that would be out of beta two years from the IPO, he's already got software so he could start the "profit" with the first sale. (Well, theoretically there's the cost of writing the software but from the hypothetical corporation's point of view that effort is zero, since it starts off with the software.) He wouldn't be asking the client users to download anything, which helps, and with enough time might even be able to build a BitTorrent ActiveX control so the average user (Windows, IE) doesn't even have to explicitly download a BT client. (That's how I'd go, if I were going to make this into a business.)

      I think a "startup" nowadays needs to go ahead and have a sellable software product in hand before expecting to go anywhere, much as a startup free software product needs to have something that does usable work before it will attract a developer community.

      The only thing that would concern me about this business model is that bandwidth prices are kind of artificially inflated right now because of really crappy leadership by our Federal government. If any FCC administration ever figured out what they were doing, or suddenly had an attack of ethics and remembered that they're supposed to server the people rather then corporate interests, the bandwidth situation could significantly improve, which would lower (albiet not eliminate) the need for BitTorrent technology at the corporate level. There may be a relatively narrow window where this sort of thing is economically viable (as opposed to useful; they are not the same thing at all!). Still, said "relatively narrow window" in all likelihood is at least three or four years (I can't imagine the bandwidth situation being sorted out on a large scale in any lesser time period) and you can still make a respectable amount of money in that time, plus you have that time to refine the product into something that may be able to continue to be usable even after market conditions change.
      [ Parent ]
  • free music (Score:5, Informative)

    by sweeney37 (325921) * <sweene49@@@velotel...com> on Monday June 02 2003, @10:30AM (#6096110)
    (Last Journal: Tuesday July 22 2003, @11:00AM)
    Also, all the etree usage (live show recordings of bands which permit it) is completely legal. BitTorrent's total bandwith usage would be quite substantial even if the etree distributions were all it was used for.

    many people are not aware bands like Dave Matthews Band have an open taping policy. while not soundboard, many audience recordings are really close. many tapers spend $5000-6000 dollars in equipment and acheive pristine copies of the concerts. access to the shows has become even easier thanks to an amalgamation between archive.org [archive.org] and etree.org [etree.org], we now have the etree.org audio archive [archive.org].

    these files are distributed in the lossless SHN format so each copy will sound the same no matter which generation of the disc you have.

    with the addition of BitTorrent the trading of these concerts has become even easier. Many links can be found under the music [no-ip.org] of Smiler's BitTorrent site. But here are a few direct links; here [phook.org] and here [musicfreaks.net].

    Check out the etree newbie FAQ [etree.org] and the etree trader database [etree.org] for more info.

    The best part is the RIAA can do nothing about it, imagine that legal free music!

    Mike
    • Re:free music by listen (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @10:57AM
    • Re:free music by Abcd1234 (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @11:43AM
      • Re:free music by mark_lybarger (Score:1) Monday June 02 2003, @12:33PM
        • Re:free music by Abcd1234 (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @03:02PM
          • Re:free music by zenyu (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @03:30PM
            • Re:free music by mark_lybarger (Score:1) Monday June 02 2003, @04:50PM
              • Re:free music by zenyu (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @09:34PM
              • Re:free music by mark_lybarger (Score:1) Tuesday June 03 2003, @06:24AM
              • Re:free music by zenyu (Score:2) Tuesday June 03 2003, @01:48PM
  • The following (not python but java/gcj based) project is nice The Hunting of the Snark Project [klomp.org].
    Although maybe not yet perfect it includes a BitTorrent client and tracker implementation which seems to do very nicely for smaller downloads. It includes a build in webserver and tracker which makes sharing files really easy.
  • My question would be... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by NLG (636251) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:33AM (#6096136)
    ... Are you concerned that M$ might decide to make a P2P system that works similarly to this and start bundling the client with Windows, or even as a part of their Media Player? They would then license the tech to the media companies to use for distributing movies, etc. Such a move could dramatically reduce the growth potential of BitTorrent (see "Netscape" and "RealPlayer").
    Even if M$ just gave it away at first in order to take the biggest chunk of the market for later reaping, the impact on other products such as yours and Kazaa and others would be, well, bad.

  • Commercial uses (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Neophytus (642863) * on Monday June 02 2003, @10:48AM (#6096231)
    A commercial branch of BT could be packaged up nicely as a spyware free [extremetech.com] alternative to things like kontiki [kontiki.com] which companys like gamespot.com [gamespot.com] use to send large files to non paying users but avoiding the bandwidth costs.
  • Slight lack of vision (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hey (83763) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:50AM (#6096255)
    (Last Journal: Thursday December 08 2005, @04:33PM)
    He said images on a website are too small to bother with. Well, how about a tarball of the entire site?
    With the home page at the front. It would be terrific if people didn't have to fear being slashdotted. It would be cool if an Apache module could be developed to detect when bandwidth reached over a certain level, made a tarball and only allowed Torrent download of that. Then later, reverted to normal.

    Making a file system driver for BitTorrent - not possible too different? I don't buy that. I could be done. Of course, there'd be latency.
    Perhaps not handy of interactive use.

    Also, how about new bowser protocol tag (like http://) ... torrent://slashdotted.site.com
    Since Gnome's VFS already does smb: etc this
    would be a nice place to add it.

  • anyone remember this? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by jooon (518881) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:52AM (#6096273)
    (http://jon.aslund.org/)
    Bram said:My attempts to promote BitTorrent for any specific purpose basically failed.
    Yeah, not even the porn crowd [bitconjurer.org] were interested. This is like VHS all over. Probably something crappy will take over and completely crush the much better BitTorrent. :)
  • vs. Leechers (Score:1)

    by Pope (17780) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:52AM (#6096278)
    (http://www.kabong.ca/)
    BT only works well when people leave their clients open well after their downloads end. At the moment, there exists no good way to maximize the seeders, other than intially seeding a file that's 99% done, and then putting the remaining 1% up when there are lots of seeders.

    You can still easily leech like a mofo, once your download is done, there's no real check for it.
  • by barcodez (580516) on Monday June 02 2003, @11:02AM (#6096374)
    When looking into the BitTorrent protocol and reading posts to various groups I keep finding the same thing. Bram has stated that his client has been tuned to work with a complex algorithm (to stop leeching amoung other things). Now whilst the protocol is known and documented the algorithms for sharing has not been. I would like to know if there are any plans to document this algorithm anywhere (other than the Python source). The algorith seems to be the important (read new and inovative) thing not the superficial protocol.
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Redundancy (Score:5, Interesting)

    by malakai (136531) * on Monday June 02 2003, @11:02AM (#6096375)
    (Last Journal: Thursday March 13 2003, @09:00PM)
    Bram Said:
    Relying on a single tracker is really no different than relying on a single web site. Any well-colocated machine is plenty reliable enough, and if you really need failover you can do it at the DNS level

    sigh..

    I don't think he gets it. First, we've already discussed the virtues/sins of DNS round-robin. But basically, when DNS round-robin doesn't solve your problem, you have to go to Big-IP. Which means 'free' tracker sites will need complex setup for failover/redundancy.

    If the Tracker itself, had this built in, i propose it could do it more efficently, and with less setup hassle. Imagine being able to setup a mirror by simply having the admin place your new "cluster-able" tracker IP:Port on an approved mirror list. The main tracker could refer clients to a mirror after behind-the-scenes communication to determine which mirror has least load.

    A step below this, but better than DNS round-robin, would be to give the client an array of tracker addresses. This is better than DNS because you don't get the stalled server mixed with cached DNS record causing inaccessibility. The clients could try connections randomly to the servers in the array, and prevent cached dns records for altering distribution.

    -Malakai
    • Re:Redundancy by Anonymous Canard (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @11:55AM
      • Re:Redundancy by ryanr (Score:3) Monday June 02 2003, @01:04PM
        • Re:Redundancy by malakai (Score:2) Tuesday June 03 2003, @02:50PM
      • DNS CACHE by malakai (Score:2) Tuesday June 03 2003, @02:54PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Hmm... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by GreyOrange (458961) on Monday June 02 2003, @11:03AM (#6096383)
    (Last Journal: Tuesday July 25 2006, @06:00AM)
    4) Improvements... by BJH
    Bram,
    Do you have any plans for improvements to BitTorrent to improve some of its (few) weaknesses, such as searching for torrent files, bandwidth usage by trackers and inability to download if the tracker goes off the air?
    Bram:
    I have no plans to add search functionality, since that can be handled at a higher layer, such as google, and finding content via links is considerably more versatile and widespread than keyword searching anyway.



    Well the only problem I have with that is as more and more links go to warez sites, more and more searchs will lead to porn ridden bitters on the top, espeacly with google and the way it operates on a most popularly linked to basis. The ones that have warez and no popups/porn will be the first to go down.
    • Re:Hmm... by FunkSoulBrother (Score:2) Monday June 02 2003, @12:44PM
      • Re:Hmm... by GreyOrange (Score:1) Monday June 02 2003, @12:50PM
  • Download Stats (Score:1)

    by DickBreath (207180) <danny&sunflower,com> on Monday June 02 2003, @11:05AM (#6096403)
    (http://slashdot.org/)
    If *I* was Warner Bros, and eveyone offered to distribute and pay for all the bandwidth for the next version of the Animatrix, while I still got to see download statistics, i'm not sure I'd even would need to provide a direct link to the 150 meg QuickTime files.

    Yes, the answer to this question was that BT provided download stats.

    But I'd like to point out that with DRM wouldn't it be possible to know your download stats of movies / mp3's etc?
  • Leeching? (Score:2, Funny)

    by TheNumberSix (580081) <NumberSix@simpli ... EL.com_minusfood> on Monday June 02 2003, @11:09AM (#6096430)
    Bram said
    On the highest level, this prevents a long-term meltdown of the system from being caused by people running leeching clients.
    I think it's amusing to imagine the response of Hilary Rosen or any other RIAA/MPAA thug to the above quote.

    "Leeching clients? They are all leeching clients and must be jailed immediately! Call the FBI!"
  • Swarm a Media Stream (Score:4, Interesting)

    by rossjudson (97786) on Monday June 02 2003, @11:31AM (#6096605)
    (http://www.soletta.com/)
    Now if Bram would just get busy and figure out how to swarm a multimedia feed, we could solve the bandwidth problem for that.

    Radio on the net, video on the net...the problem is the multiplying lag factor. You need to organize the swarm into tiers, by lag. Tough but doable. Add support for IP broadcast, where available...

  • Dew Respect (Score:2, Funny)

    by beatbox32 (325106) on Monday June 02 2003, @11:38AM (#6096664)
    (http://blog.humanmodem.com/)
    With all dew respect to the effort taken, the rest is just functional glue that allows the system to work as it should.

    That's right, never disrespect the Dew [mountaindew.com]!! Never!!
  • Who is this guy? (Score:3, Funny)

    by ryanvm (247662) on Monday June 02 2003, @12:09PM (#6096925)
    I'm amused mostly. I find humans highly entertaining.

    Whoa - is this guy a fucking android?!?
  • I would use it... (Score:1)

    by LilGuy (150110) on Monday June 02 2003, @12:16PM (#6096976)
    If perhaps there was a way for windows to send all ACK packets before any other data, so my downloads dont drop to 30 k/s and lower when Im using my entire upstream bandwidth. But there isn't a way, so I don't use it.
  • Now that Shareaza [shareaza.com] now has .torrent support in its newest beta (1.8.9.0) [shareaza.com], it should bring in quite a bit of content to the "network"...
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:IN case of slashdotting (Score:3, Funny)

    by larry bagina (561269) on Monday June 02 2003, @10:41AM (#6096185)
    (Last Journal: Friday October 19, @09:21PM)
    Anybody have a bittorrent link for a text-file of the article? In case it gets slashdotted.
    [ Parent ]
  • 12 replies beneath your current threshold.