Answers from 'Our Man in Jordan'

At the beginning of this month we sent your questions to Isam Bayazidi of Amman, Jordan. He's a Slashdot reader, founder of the Jordan Planet blogging community, and (I know this from personal experience) knows the best places to buy discount-priced computer components in his home town. Enjoy!

(1) Arab and Israeli communities
by Yonkeltron

Is there any collaboration between the Arab and Israeli communities when it comes to blogging, Free/Open Source Software or general computing?

Isam:

I will start with the Open Source Software: Arabic, Farsi and Hebrew languages have many similarities which make them overlap in some areas with language support. Example is general Multi-Lingual support, and the BiDi (Bi-Directional) support of applications. Such similarities made it reasonable to communicate and collaborate in certain projects. A great example is the FriBidi library which was introduced by 2 Iranian developers, and now used by many open source projects, some of which originating from Israel. As well, there are Open Source volunteers from Israel who are working in BiDi support in applications (Ex. Wine) and one can find communication between individuals working on similar projects... Another example is the Arabic Wikipedia, as Arabic language is an official language in Israel, so there are contributors who work in both Hebrew and Arabic wikipedias..

As for Blogging, I am not sure if it would be accurate to call the blog collective from countries a community, because basically they are people with totally different opinions, each expressing it in his/her own space, so it won't be fair to characterise and generalize them. Nevertheless, you would see small blogger-interactions such as comments, track backs, tagging, and pingbacks happening between bloggers from Israel and other parts of the Arab world.

Now I am not sure I would call this "community-level" or "individual-level" interaction. I know that it is happening, because it makes sense in some cases. Nevertheless, I think that with no final solution for the middle-east issue in horizon, such cooperation will stay mostly limited, and won't rise to be a community-level cooperation..

(2)Straight Outta Casablanca
by Doc Ruby

You have solid credits for several "Arab versions" of modern software. The Mideast was where many technologies, like writing, urban living, astronomy and symbolic math were invented or mastered. What new uses of the Internet and open SW do you see originating in Mideastern hands? Which brand new apps are people in your world using in a way more familiar in the Mideast, which could make the jump to global popularity the way so much Western tech already has?

Isam:

In my opinion, the Arabs are in a completely different state than when those technologies were invented or mastered. At that time, It was the prime time for the Islamic culture, where other parts of the world were busy hunting witches and wizards. Today, Arab countries is in a knowledge crisis (Ref: Arab Human Development Report 2003) which appears in information reach, technology use, and thus effecting innovation. We should be more worried about meeting basic needs when it comes to knowledge and education, than to think about global reach, and having larger world influence.

Now talking about Internet and software, while there are a number of innovators from arab countries, leading in certain segments, niches. As well, you would find a general state of imitations for successful models and businesses, example: Arabic versions of many of the popular softwares and services: search engine, blog services, photo-sharing, iTunes-like music stores, arabic-centric versions of many of the Mashups, and so on. Once imitation is done, uniqueness may start to emerge, which is very likely to have global visibility and reach. I do not see that happening in the next 2-4 years, but again, who knows.

Regarding Open Source software, as long as adoption for the software is limited to individual level, and do not reach cooperate or governmental or even academia levels, I do not see that we will be seeing successful sustainable projects, as individuals and pioneers are met with great challenges and resistance from those who are supposed to support their efforts.

(3) Credible Sources for Arab Bloggers by tabdelgawad


As a founder of an Arabic (Jordanian) blogging community, what do you perceive to be the source of news most popular/trusted by Arab bloggers? Is it local, Arab (AlJazeera, etc), European (BBC, TV5, etc), or American (NY Times, Washington Post, CNN, Fox News, etc)? Is the Arab blogging community a large echo chamber for the latest and greatest western conspiracy theories, or is there genuine diversity of sources and opinions?

Isam:

With the aggregation, tagging, and news alert systems we have today, Internet as a whole is considered the primary source. It became easier to watch and track 100s of sources from all over the world, and filter what you might be interested in. Most of the Bloggers today are Internet savvy people, monitoring the media in general.

Nevertheless, Arab news sites such as Al-Jazeera, Al-Arabeya, and elaph are on the top Arab news sites that people refer to, comes along with them BBC Arabic service (which many consider the most credible).

It is needless to say that bloggers have a more open eye to the media of the west than the English speaking media in Asia, Africa, or Latin America. Reason would be a combination of both 1) International visibility for those western media 2) Arab bloggers being more focused and concerned about how the west perceive them than other parts of the world.

(4) Down to earth... how does it feel?
by TINGEA77

As an Arab, a Jordanian, a regular Slashdot reader, and a computer addict my self, I feel compelled to ask this question. But first a little about why I'm asking... I started my addiction when I was in Jordan at an early age in the mid 80's, and moved to the United States in the late 90's. So I think by now I'm out of touch with how things are advancing in our part of the world. I used to be considered as a knowledgeable geek, but that was a long time ago when I had more time on my hands. :(

My questions are (really it is the same LONG question:)

Now that online communities and computer volunteering (especially OSS) is growing on the highest rate in the western part of the globe, how do you see participation and understanding of such participation in Jordan in specific, and the middle east in general?

Do you see the Arab population is going toward a more active role, or maintaining a technology consumer role as it used to be in the old days? Do you feel that you are a loner in what you do and contribute? Or do you get a whole lot of "Hey man that is soo cool, how would I start contributing like you do?"

Last but not least, from your day-in-day-out interaction with the local-online-communities, when do you see us (Arabs) technologically maturing to a level where we can be a major contributing force in the OSS global community... is it happening now?

Isam:

Volunteerism within computer and online communities could be within the same levels as you would find in the west. But considering the Internet penetration, and number of people with DSL lines, you would find the number to be low. You would find many volunteer-based community sites on the Internet, ranging from general forums, community-news, Sport fan sites, tech support, mobile tips, and so on.

As for OSS volunteerism, one of the big challenges is the language barrier... it is almost a prerequisite to have good English language to be able to participate and contribute. This causes many of those who are potential volunteers to be driven away to communities that do not have this language prerequisite. Another aspect, is the university educational systems, which do not encourage, in fact some time discourage, students from being active in Open Source projects and communities. Lack of understanding and knowledge from most of the academia about what is Open Source, its benefits to their students and them, causes having generations of students who lack the understanding, or even sometime fear the participation.

A good thing is that there are some communities rising in Arab countries, with the focus of promoting Open Source and activism in the community. Example is Arabeyes project, which focuses on adding Arabic language support to Open Source programs, as well the NoISA project that came out of Jordan LUG, and many other projects that came out of LUGs (Egypt-Lug, Linuxegypt, Saudi LUG). As well, the Arabic Wikipedia is growing in size in terms of articles and community, making it one of the successful examples of collaborative projects in the Arab world.

One thing to note, is that I am no longer active, or having a leading role in either of the projects I was involved in before: Arabeyes, Jordan LUG, or Arabic Wikipedia. I still maintain good ties and relation with those communities, but I am no longer involved as I am shifting focus into different fields and communities.

(5) Exportation of Technology
by DaedalusLogic

A lot of people in the states are familiar with anti-export warnings on encryption technology:

Are their any technologies that the government of Jordan specifically mandates not be exported outside of its borders?

OR

How common is it that encryption technology that the U.S. Government asks not be used overseas is actually implemented "against their will"?

Isam:

I am no expert in that field. To start with, the top technology companies in Jordan are Microsoft/CISCO/HP/Oracle partners. The government itself have a partnership with Microsoft and CISCO on the high levels. Nevertheless, there are restrictions applied with exporting technology to Jordan from US companies. I am not aware of encryption-related restrictions and how they are handled. But I know that US export policy prevents having servers with large number of processors sold to companies or even universities in Jordan, powerful computers are just not present in server rooms here. The alternative had always been having multiple servers, with load balancing or clustering, to do a task that could have been done in one powerful machine.

I am not aware of any Jordanian export restrictions related to technology. Infact, some of my friends found that question funny when they read it in slashdot.. Jordan limiting export to US :) .. There are hardly any software or technology-related house here that could be working on sensitive projects, and even if they do, US funding and partnership will be a part of that project.

(6) Dilbert by Lev13than

I'm going to guess that office and IT environments around the globe probably share more in common than their superficial differences (language, decor, degree of automation etc...) suggest. Indeed, petty politics and general insanity are going to raise their heads regardless of your office's time zone. As such, how well does Dilbert [ dilbert.com], the quintessential North American corporate satire, translate into Arabic? Do you see your office in these cartoons? If not, is there an Arabic version that does a better job?

Isam:

Although I regularly follow Dilbert, because I didn't have a long office-work experience (I worked as on-my-own consultant for most of the time) I do not really relate to most of Dilbert management/office-related cartoons, nevertheless, most of my friends who are in the IT field, or large telecom companies tell me that they really relate to it, and swear by it.

Unfortunately, comics or cartoons are not very popular in this part of the world. There are no office/IT related cartoons known in the Arab world, as well, Dilbert is not even translated to Arabic. You won't find a half or full page of comic strips in Arab newspapers, but rather the political one-big cartoon.

(7) Stereotypes and those who would further them... by d3ac0n

Ok, Two-parter here...

1)As an Arab in today's world, how do you deal with those in the Western world who further the stereotype of "Arabs As Radicals"?

Isam:

What saddens me the most, is that the Media plays a great part in forming this image, and the general public do not take an extra step to verify or validate such image. The stereotype of Arabs go beyond the image of being Radicals, it starts by the believe that we are "totally" different, out-of-this world. Once people buy this, then any other mis-information will just easily get in the minds of ordinary people.

Another problem is the way the media highlight and focus on nationality, for example, every time Abu Musaab is mentioned, he is mentioned as "The Jordanian" or "Jordan-born" Abu Musaab, while in positive contexts, it is rare to have nationality mentioned, you won't hear in any news "The Jordanian Dr. Rima Khalaf Assistant Secretary General and Regional Director of UNDP" or "Jordan-born Usama Fayyad, the chief data officer and senior vice president of Research & Strategic Data Solutions in Yahoo". Such success models from Jordan (and I can go on and on for other Arab countries) are rarely associated with the country of origin when referred to in the media, making it easy for anyone to have a visual image of a radical when I first tell them that I am Jordanian, as they would think Abu Mussab, rather than Dr. Usama Fayyad.

d3ac0n

2) In addition how do you, as a forward-thinking Arab, address the issue of those in the Middle Eastern world that would seek to further the radical elements of Islam for thier own purposes, regardless of the consequences or the stereotypes this may create in the West? In other words, how does one function as a concientious objector in Middle Eastern Society?

Isam:

I had something like 3 drafts to answer this question, and I came to the conclusion that I am no expert in that field to be able to give a good answer for that question... short answer: politicians and those seeking power would use anything, including religion, to empower themselves, and weaken their opponents.. We've seen this all over the world through out the history, not only in Islamic countries..

(8) Which is more important to develop...
by Viperion

A communication infrastructure, or a transportation infrastructure? I ask this because what my American viewpoint sees of the middle east is the seeming lack of mass-transportation systems like we have in American (highways, railroads, and the like.) The Middle East also seems to lack a stable communication infrastructure, especially to rural areas. Which do you think is more important, communications or transportation?

Isam:

Transportation comes first. Being able to go to school or work, have goods and food reach you is part of life basics.. once that is fulfilled, definitely communication comes.. with proper communication it doesn't matter where you are working from.. Talking about Jordan, we currently have a good road infrastructure, and an acceptable transportation system, so now there is great focus on communication. There are many projects in that field, such as inter-university fiber connection, the broadband-to-schools, and PC-to-every-home projects.

(9) Cartoons and website defacement
by Weaselmancer

So, what's your opinion on the arabic kids who are defacing websites in protest to the Mohammed cartoons?

Isam:

Crackers who found an easy target .. Just like many others who point their guns on the wrong people. Myself, as much as I find the cartoons in question offensive, I think that the reaction caused even more damage to Muslims image than what some silly cartoons may do..

(10) Arabic hacker food by DarkClown

Pizza and some caffeinated beverage with an occasional foray into sushi are typical geek food in the west - what is finding its way down the typical arabic chair dwellers gullet?

Isam:

Arabic and Turkish Coffee comes as the top source of caffeine from most geeks, as for food, a mixture of Falafel and Shawarma would be the applicable food for Jordanians. I am not sure about other parts of the Arab world.

(11) Impact on lifestyles
by tomhudson

I know that here, many people are spending an inordinate amount of time on the computer, to the point where it has negatively impacted their time spent with people in social settings (iow - people are becoming less social). Blogging is yet another time sink, on top of the web, email, etc.

Do you foresee the same negative long-term effects in the middle east as we've experienced?

Isam:

Well, people here are extra-social, so maybe being less social will introduce some balance :) kidding.. well I am sure that there will be always those who spend the days and nights of their weekends playing World of Warcraft (I know one :) ), spend their evenings writing or playing with PEAR components, or read and digg blog posts .. but I do not see a "long-term" effect happening because of this as technology spread is limited, at least for the foreseeable future. From what I see, from people I know and myself, spending time in front of a computer took time from TV or book reading rather than socializing..

(12) Arabic-translated open source software
by typical

I know that a number of people work on doing translation work for various languages -- as a whole, what is the state of Arabic-translated open source software? Is it possible for someone to work on a Linux desktop fully within Arabic, or is it necessary to use English?

Isam:

Arabeyes Project is currently leading the Arabization of Open Source software. When the project first started, it focused on the GUI interfaces (KDE, Gnome) and lots of effort was put into it (99% of KDE is translated, while only 43% of Gnome is, probably because it wasn't updated to the most recent version of Gnome). Today, volunteers focus more on the major applications, such as "Debian Installer", "Firefox", "OpenOffice" and so on. Looking at the statistics and activity today in Arabeyes, I would say that the lack of awareness of the importance of the project had caused having small numbers participating. Many of the translation projects are inactive, or with very small activity, making it lagging specially that Open Source software have a short release cycle, making a 8 months old translation out-of-date. Another problem is that that Arabic translation projects need is to get the interest of other profiles of users. Currently most of translators are in the IT-related field, and most are students.

Now while it is possible to work on GUI linux in Arabic and have almost all the basic application in arabic interface, with the fast advance in the Open source applications, and the slower movement in the translation effort, the gap might go large at certain times of the software and release lifetimes.

thanks isam

[DarkClown (7673)]

Appreciate your thoughtful and concise answers - many of us surely have a deep misunderstanding in the cultural divide between continents (and within) but your answers make it pretty clear that there aren't really any differences to be alarmed about on any personal level, and that folks are pretty much just folks, wherever.

Re:thanks isam

[Frankie70 (803801)]

What a condescending post!!!

Re:thanks isam

[Kelz (611260)]

^ Agrees with parent

Also, I'd like to add that much of the media at least in the west has essencially become a governmental entity (not ruled by the government, but they have quite a bit of control over the opinions and ideals of the general populace), and as such are just as much power-hungry as the political class, in that they will exploit most anything in order to gain attention and standing. I think this is one of the reasons cultural misconceptions have kept gaining ground recently, especially now

Re:thanks isam

[Kelz (611260)]

I am a believer that the main reason our government works (a little) better than most of the Middle-Eastern goverments is that ours has a (semi) concrete backbone in the constitution, and change is slow to come. The main problem with the governing class (and yes it IS a class of its own. Name one president who wasn't worth over $30 million in the last 40 years) is that they think they are the best people to run the country and as such the desicions they make are right.

In the US government there are lots o

Re:thanks isam

[The One and Only (691315)]

Bill Clinton was born into poverty. Ronald Reagan was, as far as I can tell, not born into wealth, nor were Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford, Richard Nixon, and Lyndon Johnson. John F. Kennedy, George Bush, and George W. Bush were all born into wealth. Now, it's true that after these individuals became President, or shortly before, many of them did become wealthy--Reagan through his acting career, Clinton in law. But so far it's been the exception that our presidents were born wealthy.

Re:thanks isam

[Kelz (611260)]

I did not say born wealthy.

Re:thanks isam

[The One and Only (691315)]

No, but we're talking about class, which by definition is hereditary. Although personally I have my doubts that many of these people were worth $30 million prior to being elected, as many of them worked in public service for most of their lives.

Re:thanks isam

[Marxist Hacker 42 (638312)]

No, but we're talking about class, which by definition is hereditary.

The whole social experiment of the United States was to destroy the link between economic class and heredity. From your list above (three out of nine) it would appear that the experiment is working- until you notice that the ENTIRE list was extremely wealthy before 1975, and that all of these men spent millions on their campaigns that had to come from someplace. Let me know when a guy who spends $100,000 on his campaign gets elected to

Re:thanks isam

[MagicMike (7992)]

In America I'd argue that class is not primarily hereditary, but that class still present nonetheless.

It's more the sum of past experiences for a person and availability of new experiences as well as attainability of different material goods.

Thus Ronald Reagan would be considered solidly upper class post-acting-career despite being born low class.

Class mobility is much easier here (in America) in that sense, the studies indicating class mobility is difficult and/or getting more difficult are mainly reflecti

Re:thanks isam

[HardCase (14757)]

Name one president who wasn't worth over $30 million in the last 40 years

I'll bite - all of them!

George W. Bush: $13,000,000
Bill Clinton: $930,000
George H. W. Bush: $2,000,000
Ronald Reagan: $4,800,000
Jimmy Carter: $2,200,000
Gerald Ford: $1,100,000
Richard Nixon: $1,300,000
Lyndon Johnson: $19,000,000

That's 40 years' worth of presidents. Info courtesy of Forbes, from their estimates of presidential wealth when in office.

-h-

Geek Fuel

[hey! (33014)]

Arabic and Turkish Coffee comes as the top source of caffeine from most geeks, as for food, a mixture of Falafel and Shawarma would be the applicable food for Jordanians. I am not sure about other parts of the Arab world.

Great! So much for working fuel. How hard is it to get beer?

Re:Geek Fuel

[Rei (128717)]

His comments reminded me of how much I like falafel and how long it's been since I made it, so I called my partner and asked her to throw some chickpeas in water to soak for dinner tonight. ;)

Beer in Jordan? I'm pretty sure it's legal. It's not Saudi Arabia or anything...

Re:Geek Fuel

[StandardDeviant (122674)]

I'm hardly an expert on Islam, but iirc the different sects have differing levels of strictness with respect to alcohol (e.g. some forbid everything, others are ok with the fermented stuff like beer/wine). Jordan is a constitutional monarchy, not a Sharia state, so afaik there would be no a priori restriction on it from an official standpoint. Of course, (according to the cia world fact book, fwiw) the population is about 92% Sunni. I don't know what their cultural attitudes about it might be and what th

Re:Geek Fuel

[hey! (33014)]

Alcohol is forbidden under Islam.

to Muslims.

Re:Geek Fuel

[killjoe (766577)]

Only to fundamentalists. There is plenty of beer, wine and other alcoholic beverages served in countries like turkey for example.

Re:Geek Fuel

[hey! (33014)]

Only to fundamentalists. There is plenty of beer, wine and other alcoholic beverages served in countries like turkey for example.

I realize that Muslims differ on their interpetations of this, but teetoalling doesn't necessarily imply fundamentalism. It may be possible to make a guess in some contexts (e.g. Turkey), but not generally. I know some rather liberal muslims who won't even touch food that has had a dash of wine in it, even though the amount of alcohol you get is probably less than you'd get fro

Re:Geek Fuel

[Marxist Hacker 42 (638312)]

Beer is only working fuel if you need to be dumber to do your job.

You mean the concept of underemployment hasn't hit Jordan yet?

From the Dilbert question:

[AEton (654737)]

Unfortunately, comics or cartoons are not very popular in this part of the world.

I see our man in Jordan is a fan of understatement.

Re:From the Dilbert question:

[Kelz (611260)]

And I see you are a fan of flamebait.

Re:From the Dilbert question:

[wiggles (30088)]

And I see you have no sense of humor.

Re:From the Dilbert question:

[Kelz (611260)]

And I see a username: Wiggles and I giggle at the funny name.

Jon Katz

[Dr. Cody (554864)]

This sure turned out better than when Jon Katz would relay Middle-eastern IT stories.

Saddens him most?

[Reality Master 101 (179095)]

What saddens me the most, is that the Media plays a great part in forming this image, and the general public do not take an extra step to verify or validate such image. The stereotype of Arabs go beyond the image of being Radicals, it starts by the believe that we are "totally" different, out-of-this world. Once people buy this, then any other mis-information will just easily get in the minds of ordinary people.

I find this rather insulting, and rather telling. It saddens him the most that the media is forming the image? How about the freaking TERRORISTS that form the image? And it doesn't "sadden him the most" that there is so much arab radicalism that causes all arabs to be painted with the same brush?

(Almost) everyone knows that not every arab supports the terrorists. But to deny that there are grains of truth at the core of the portrayal of Arabs is to deny reality. Arab radicalism is a huge problem right now, and it's going to take Arabs like him to stand up and tell their own people to shut up, sit down, and stop killing people.

Gah! It angers me to see things like this, like it's some western conspiracy to paint Arabs in a bad light.

Re:Saddens him most?

[by Anonymous Coward]

> Gah! It angers me to see things like this

Truly, your post was hilarious, although I'm not sure if you meant it as a caricature of racism, or if it reflects real hatreds you have.

Original comment: It saddens me to see the media paint the billion arabs as evil, because a few fight back against the US, sometimes in hideous fashion

Your comment: But, they're almost all truly evil, because of what I see on the media, so how can you criticize the media?

Hehe, hilarious.

Re:Saddens him most?

[Fanboy Troy (957025)]

I'm sorry, but his point, I believe, was that the media actually amplify the image radicals pose upon all arabs, which is true. I could start a whole flamewar saying "all Americans are oil thirsty killers", but both you and I know this isn't the case. Most Arabs and Americans I know are actually peace-loving people. Generalization is the beginning of hate, and this is exactly what the media does. I have an Iranian friend right now I'm not sure will be alive in a few years because of this stupidness. And yes, it's the media polarizing things that start Holy wars. We all must wake up from this nightmare as soon as possible...

Re:Saddens him most?

[That's Unpossible! (722232)]

I'm sorry, but his point, I believe, was that the media actually amplify the image radicals pose upon all arabs, which is true.

Radicals? You mean like the reformed government of Afghanistan, who now has a man on trial for converting to Christianity over a decade ago, and are now trying him for this crime against Islam. Punishment being sought? Death.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/21/afghan.c hristian/ [cnn.com]

Yes, the media sucks... but sometimes the source of their hype sucks worse.

Re:Saddens him most?

[hunterx11 (778171)]

Afghanis aren't Arabs, you dumbass.

Saudi Arabia

[Perl-Pusher (555592)]

The key thing to do here is to economically approach such countries. Up their living standards and educate the population.

And how has this money changed the Saudis? Osama Bin Laden was born into billions. I spent a lot of time in Saudi Arabia. What I saw was a 5 years old boy crashing and dying while driving an expensive Toyota Land Cruiser because mom wasn't allowed to drive. I saw a very classy shopping mall that only Saudis could shop in, the indentured slaves had to shop in the slum district. I saw an

Re:Saudi Arabia

[Fanboy Troy (957025)]

What you are describing my friend is a really big gap in classes in Saudi Arabia. This phenomenon is present even in western societies. You'll often see the poor go to extremes out of despair. Surely not to the extent you are describing, but the pattern is there. The good thing with western societies, is that the differences between classes aren't that big, so you won't see alot of violence. They can accept the way they live alot easier than the 'indentured slaves' as you say. What about the illegal immigra

Re:Saddens him most?

[AhtirTano (638534)]

find this rather insulting, and rather telling. It saddens him the most that the media is forming the image? How about the freaking TERRORISTS that form the image? And it doesn't "sadden him the most" that there is so much arab radicalism that causes all arabs to be painted with the same brush?

Basic math skills will show that the vast majority of Muslims are not involved in this radical behavior. Try this: Total Number of Suspected Terrorists in the Muslim World divided by Total Population of Muslims. Then compare that with: Total Number of American Incarcerated for Violent Crime divided by American Population. You'll find that the second number is larger than the first. Do you go around saying that Americans are blood-thirsty savages? Do you talk about the Irish the way you talk about Muslims based on the behaviour of the IRA? How about the Basque because of the ESA?

Note I'm not saying Muslim radicalism isn't a problem. I'm saying it is unfair to criticize Muslims in general for the actions of a small minority. To paraphrase Ann Frank: "What one Christian does is his own responsibility, what one Muslim does is thrown back at all Muslims."

Re:Saddens him most?

[Reality Master 101 (179095)]

When a Palestinian suicide bomber kills civilians it's often described as terrorism, but apparantly not when the US drops bombs on a restaurant where they believe Saddam Hussein is eating

The difference is intent (why do I need to explain this? It's insane). The suicide bomber intends to kill civilians. The US intends to kill a military target. It's an unfortunate truth that sometimes civilians are killed along with a military target, but the true blame likes with the cowardly terrorists who hide among civ

Re:Saddens him most?

[jonbritton (950482)]

The difference is intent...The suicide bomber intends to kill civilians. The US intends to kill a military target. It's an unfortunate truth that sometimes civilians are killed along with a military target,

This has to be a troll, but it raises a wonderful philosophical argument: Who is worse? The man who kills of rage, or the man who kills of apathy?

It's also true that these "civilians" that are killed aren't all that innocent

Must really fuck up your day when you're having a meal and your fri

Re:Saddens him most?

[Threni (635302)]

> The difference is intent

No, if you know that by doing something you're going to - or likely to - kill civilians, then you have intent. I mean, isn't that what happens in criminal cases? If I intend to kill you and I miss and shoot your brother, I'm guilty of his murder. If my gun goes off by accident and kills him, it's not murder.

Re:Saddens him most?

[killjoe (766577)]

". The suicide bomber intends to kill civilians. The US intends to kill a military target."

Not quite right. Here is how it is.

The suicide bomber intends to kill civillians because he lacks weaponry to attack military targets.

The US does not care if it kills civillians and is willing to kill as many as it takes if it MIGHT result in the death of target.

Of course the US is also willing to round up human beings all over the world and then ship them off to be tortured but that's another topic.

"It's also true th

uh, fribidi was started by an Israeli

[spotter (5662)]

not to get in a nit picking war, but fribidi was started by an Israeli

http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/fribidi/fribidi/AUTH ORS?rev=1.11&view=markup [freedesktop.org]

Dov Grobgeld
* Initial author.

and is now maintained by an Iranian.

Behdad Esfahbod
* Current maintainer, Added explicit bidi support, fixed all
conformance bugs, changed the library to use bitmasks, rewrote
many things, removed glib dependency.

Re:uh, fribidi was started by an Israeli

[isam_b (635273)]

My Mistake.. It is since day 1 of knowing the projects I've seen Behdad, and Roozbeh involved in the project, which caused this misunderstanding from my part.. Nevertheless, this supports my case/example even more :) of Open Source collaboration between volunteers from Israel and arab/muslim countries..

Our man in Jordan?

[ronanbear (924575)]

Peter Andre? Our?

Brain Balance

[Doc Ruby (173196)]

I wonder how much faster the Arab info society would evolve if there weren't such a brain drain to EurAmerican society. Even in Arab countries, many talented and productive people get sucked into EurAmerican corporate and government jobs, which suck the value into the foreign info societies, rather than feeding back locally. And which Westernize the participating Arabs, so they don't contribute "Arab" solutions to the global info society.

Meanwhile Europe and America have local labor who don't want to compete with Arab visitors who subsidize their lower costs with time spent back in cheaper Arab countries, invest in homes and retirements there, etc.

Is there a mutual development benefit to restricting foreigners from joining EurAmerican labor pools, rather than taking the easy way out with only small benefits to Arab workers? And if Arabs had to grow their own domestic info societies, would they also grow their own local democracies, to reflect the increasing power of their middle class?

Is the balance of benefit to the actual workers in each country closer to staying home than to the current brain drain? Is there a better way to get that balance than just keeping foreign labor from visiting the more developed countries?

Re:Brain Balance

[raduf (307723)]

For every "brain" gone West there's a lot of management and technology and entropy in general that comes from the big companies that come into the country.
All those brains would have done almost nothing without the big companies to allow them to use their potential.
My country (Romania) is in the same position: a lot of talk about brain drain but nobody stops to think that neither windows nor linux not mobile telephony not even the simplest computer would have been

Arab humour

[MSBob (307239)]

When at my uni (long time ago, years before 9/11) I used to hang out with a bunch of Arabs. Most were from Jordan and one guy was from Syria.

They were some of the funniest people I ever met. They were able to come up with some hillarious puns in English even though it was their second language. How is that for a language skill? I've always been amazed at the mastery of the English language by Arab students, but I digress...

What gets me is the portrayal of muslims in the west, as people completely devoid of any sense of humour. It really could not be further from the truth.

If more westerners mingled with them, they'd realize just how sociable and interesting Arab people are. Of course, they have their own culture but they are much more open minded than the western media would make you believe. In fact they are far more open minded than most westerners I know.

Re:Arab humour

[Johnboi Waltune (462501)]

You interacted with Jordanians and Syrians who were very educated, and Westernized. They spoke English fluently, attended secular university in the West, and were probably members of the upper class in their societies of origin to be able to afford it.

I'd venture to say you didn't get a very accurate picture of the attitudes of the average Jordanian or Syrian (who likely is barely literate in his own language, and has no secondary education or meaningful exposure to a humanist worldview.)

Remember, anecdotes are not evidence.

Re:Arab humour

[MSBob (307239)]

The "Arab terrist" mythology is as much anecdotal evidence as my empirical experience. Since I trust my own experiences more than I trust the "big media" I'll go with my gut feel that on average, Arabs are funny and sociable. Much more so than the BBC/CNN/Fox want you to believe. Oh yeah, I did mention the Beeb in that group. They're just as biased as their American counterparts. They just talk with British accents and thus sound more smug and condescending.

Re:Arab humour

[HardCase (14757)]

...Arabs are funny and sociable.

MY GOD, ARABS ARE PEOPLE!!!!

Re:Arab humour

[swissmonkey (535779)]

I'd venture to say you didn't get a very accurate picture of the attitudes of the average Jordanian or Syrian (who likely is barely literate in his own language, and has no secondary education or meaningful exposure to a humanist worldview.)

I'd venture to say you have a very inaccurate picture of the average arab, you know, there are schools and universities in Jordan and Syria. They're not all peasants, the litteracy level in Jordan is over 90%

It doesn't mean all schools compare to Berkeley or Stanford, but it's much better than you think.

Newsflash:

[temojen (678985)]

There are schools in Jordan and Syria.

Re:Arab humour

[The One and Only (691315)]

Puns occur to you more easily when you're learning a second language, because you learn ambiguities and homonyms.

Re:Arab humour

[MSBob (307239)]

Their puns were intentional. I should have clarified that.

Re:Arab humour

[The One and Only (691315)]

I don't doubt they were intentional, but it's easier to make puns with a language you recently learned than a language you've known all your life.

So how is this different?

[LWATCDR (28044)]

"What saddens me the most, is that the Media plays a great part in forming this image, and the general public do not take an extra step to verify or validate such image. The stereotype of Arabs go beyond the image of being Radicals, it starts by the believe that we are "totally" different, out-of-this world. Once people buy this, then any other misinformation will just easily get in the minds of ordinary people. "

This is different how? I have seen the same thing in how the media showed people in Northern Ir

Re:Cheapest computer store in town

[mrmeval (662166)]

Is that the one just past the redneck tree on the right? :-)