Interview Lawyers Who Defend Against RIAA Suits

Attorneys Ty Rogers and Ray Beckerman maintain a blog called Recording Industry vs The People, subtitled, "A blog devoted to the RIAA's lawsuits of intimidation brought against ordinary working people," which was most recently linked from Slashdot on Sept. 10. They've agreed to answer your questions about RIAA suits -- and they obviously will not preface their answers with "IANAL," although we must note that they cannot give specific legal advice about specific cases. For that you need to engage an attorney yourself. (Luckily, their site contains a directory of lawyers willing to defend against RIAA suits.) In any case, these guys obviously know more than the average bear (or lawyer) about how the RIAA goes about suing music fans, how to keep from getting sued by the RIAA, and how to fight back if you do get sued, so we're glad they're willing to help us learn more about this apparently endless legal mess. Usual Slashdot interview rules apply.

Guilty?

[PrinceAshitaka (562972)]

If you are completely guilty and are sued, but do not have the money to pay, what are your options?

Godfather them

[Simonetta (207550)]

Set up a meeting with the RIAA attorney to arrange payment. Have a gun and a piece of paper that says that the suit is dropped by the RIAA.
    Meet the RIAA. Pull the gun. Tell the creep that either their signature will be on the paper or their brains will be. If he doesn't sign the paper dropping the suit, then blow his brains out. If he does sign, then don't harm him. After all, you are a man of honor even when dealing with worthless scum like RIAA lawyers that the world would be better off not having anyway.
    If he laughs at you, shoot his hand apart like in "Taxi Driver". If he stares you in the eye and offers to reduce your fine by 20%, then shoot him in the leg. Take his wallet and leave. If he offers to go down to 50% of the fine after you shoot him in the leg and blow his hand apart, then agree to the 50% fine. Then pay him a retainer and have him become your lawyer in all future dealings with the RIAA. He's a pit bull.

    If everybody did this then we wouldn't have this kind of trouble from these asshats. Nobody in Iraq or Russia or the Congo ever has to worry about the RIAA, why should we? After all, killing an RIAA lawyer isn't exactly killing a human being, is it?

Chapter 7 is no sure thing

[westlake (615356)]

As others have said, Chapter 7 bankruptcy is a sure thing.

"All debts are wiped out in Chapter 7 bankruptcy."

You wish. Certain types of debts cannot be discharged (erased). They include child support, alimony, government-issued or government-guaranteed student loans, and debts incurred as the result of fraud. It's also very unlikely that a judge will discharge legal settlements you've been assessed, such as money you've been ordered to pay to someone who sued you. 12 myths about bankruptcy [bankrate.com]

Changes in the law have made liquidation under Chapter 7 much more difficult: Bankruptcy filings fall to lowest level in 5 years [kten.com]

Biggest Mistake?

[eldavojohn (898314)]

What's the biggest mistake you've seen people make historically in cases where they're charged by the RIAA?

Cost

[Anonymous Coward]

Out of curiosity, if I was sued by the RIAA (falsely or not), how much would it end up costing me to defend myself?

Good vs Bad?

[PrinceAshitaka (562972)]

Do you have a high percentage of your clients that are guilty or do you specialize in the exceptions, the clients that have good legal ground to defend themselves?

Lawyers from outer space?

[hawkeye_82 (845771)]

You guys are lawyers AND like to help people? What's it like on your home planet ;) ?

Re:Lawyers from outer space?

[rolfwind (528248)]

Well, when you look up into the skies, you see flocks of pigs flying.

Other than that, it's pretty much like this place.

Out of Court Settlement, Smart/Stupid?

[eldavojohn (898314)]

A lot of people settle out of court [com.com] when they are sued and it turns out to be between $12,000 & $17,000. Now, this looks like chump change compared to the $150,000 per violation and 1,000 songs shared means $150,000,000 lawsuit. Is this smart or stupid? I mean, don't you, the lawyers that these people consult, tell them to fold and pay the little amount of money?

Follow up to that, do you believe the RIAA would actually win a $150,000,000 lawsuit if the out of court routes weren't taken? They seem to imply they wouldn't win if they offer these tiny settlements en masse.

Re:Out of Court Settlement, Smart/Stupid?

[garcia (6573)]

Now, this looks like chump change compared to the $150,000 per violation and 1,000 songs shared means $150,000,000 lawsuit. Is this smart or stupid? I mean, don't you, the lawyers that these people consult, tell them to fold and pay the little amount of money?

I'm more interesting in knowing how they can justify calculating that they have lost $150,000 per song "shared" and why they don't have to show any proof that this amount damage actually occured per song.

Re:Out of Court Settlement, Smart/Stupid?

[DzugZug (52149)]

$150,000 is a statutory penalty and has no relation to the cost to the label. The same penalty occures for infringement without monetary gain.

Re:

[Mixel (723232)]

I'm confused. How does one define a 'unit' of infringement? I mean, is it a single tarball of albums by the same author, or a single album, or a single song, or maybe a single minute of a song? Surely if I should ever copy a tarball album without permission, I have only infringed once.

Re:

[garcia (6573)]

(2) In a case where the copyright owner sustains the burden of proving, and the court finds, that infringement was committed willfully, the court in its discretion may increase the award of statutory damages to a sum of not more than $150,000.

So basically the RIAA is *asking* the court for 150k to make the numbers look ridiculously high in order to get people to fold. Or in other words they are pointing the barrel of a tank cannon at you and hoping you will pee in your pants.

Awesome.

How can we prevent needing your services?

[Software (179033)]

What should we do to prevent needing your services? Another way of putting this is, how do we avoid getting sued by the RIAA?

Suing You Remotely

[eldavojohn (898314)]

Ok, so the RIAA's modus operandi seems to be filing suit against someone living half way across the country. If someone in California is charged for file sharing in New York (like what happened here [p2pnet.net], what can they do to stop this? Doesn't our justice system prevent this we-know-you're-not-going-to-come-all-the-way-over- here-so-just-settle-out-of-court strategy?

Evidence?

[eldavojohn (898314)]

I hear a lot that the RIAA has the weakest evidence ever in these cases. Such as screen shots of dynamic IP addresses [cdfreaks.com] taken from Kazaa. How the hell do judges across this country uphold these cases with such lack of concrete evidence? I mean, give me five minutes in photoshop and I'll make you a "screenshot" of Kazaa with www.whitehouse.gov's IP address listed over and over on it. Can't an expert witness cause this evidence to be thrown out quickly?

Re:Evidence?

[halcyon1234 (834388)]

The RIAA seems to be able to ask for some pretty outrageous things in their discovery requests, including seizing equipment, hard drives, etc. Can I do the same to them? Can I request the discovery of all evidence they will use in the case, including the seizing of all computers and servers used in their investigation, so I can have them expertly examined and prevent tampering?

Re:

[gEvil (beta) (945888)]

How the hell do judges across this country uphold these cases with such lack of concrete evidence?

Umm, the judges haven't upheld these cases. As far as I know, none of them have ever gone so far as to actually have a judge decide on one. Look at the "trial" section on the linked blog.

Re:

[slackmaster2000 (820067)]

This would interest me as well. I had to take part in a legal action against an (ex)employee once in which I had to produce all sorts of logs as evidence. I work for a regulated company and am thus all too familiar with validation concepts relating to the control of electronic records. Since the logs I produced were just text with a virtually non-existant degree of authenticity, I figured that they would be considered weak evidence and that I would at the least have a lot of explaining to do in terms who

Re:

[BobTheJanitor (114890)]

From a witness in Strange Brew regarding security tapes: "I'm not sure what a timestamp is... But it's very hard to fake!"

The Counter Suit

[eldavojohn (898314)]

Is there anyway to ask a judge to throw out cases when the RIAA's lawsuits become [theregister.co.uk] unbelievably [foxnews.com] ridiculous [arstechnica.com]?

I mean, who is going to chase after these lawsuits and counter sue? What repurcussions can a counter suit have on the RIAA? And, if they do successfully counter sue, how much does that slow down the RIAA?

When will this end? Could there be an epic counter suit that would make the RIAA stop with law suits?

Systemic Problem?

[ZachPruckowski (918562)]

Do you see the current situation as a systemic problem in the current torts system? Specifically, do you think we need legislative intervention to correct the "money bias" in our legal system?

I mean, there doesn't seem to be much of a way to fight an RIAA lawsuit money-wise. It always seems to end quickly: Either the defendant ist so obviously innocent they drop the case or he/she settles for "pennies on the dollar". When do you think we'll see a few definite trials to answer the hanging legal questions about investigative tactics and what an IP proves?

Your Colleagues Contact Information

[eldavojohn (898314)]

You provide a great list of lawyers willing to defend us ... But would you happen to be able to post the names, phone numbers and home mailing addresses of your colleagues that work for the RIAA?

Don't be shy about telling us which one has won the most cases against low income citizens.

Other drive content and RIAA fishing expeditions

[BenEnglishAtHome (449670)]

When I heard that the RIAA wanted to physically take possession of the equipment belonging to people they sued for discovery purposes, I was less than happy with that prospect. I use a hardware-encrypted hard drive that requires a bootup password. Without my cooperation, no one will every see what's on my drive. Given that the revelation of other content on my drive would place me in far greater jeopardy than anything having to do with pirated music (Assume the worst if you wish; you wouldn't be correct), I would never cooperate with such discovery.

Is there any mecahnism by which the court can compel my cooperation and are there any penalties for steadfastly refusing to provide it?

How do they get away with it?

[Bertie (87778)]

There's a certain peer-to-peer music filesharing client which, erm, a friend of mine uses frequently and loves dearly. They claim on their website to be all about sharing music between independent artists who've agreed to release it royalty-free, but in practice the content's all copyrighted. It's just like what Napster was in the good old days, only better. It's an absolute Aladdin's cave. What's more, if you want to jump people's download queues and get the music you're after without waiting your turn, you can pay the organisation behind the network for privileged status and ransack people's record collections left, right and centre.

I'm sure you know the network I'm talking about. My question is, given that they came down on Napster like a ton of bricks, and chase people like Kazaa and the torrent sites relentlessly, how the hell does this lot get away with it?

Not that, erm, my friend's complaining, you understand...

Re:

[Tmack (593755)]

...(to prevent real ripping off)

Nah, if it were Real, they would just buffer it

tm

Your opinion on file-sharing and copyright

[MobyDisk (75490)]

Everyone is asking about how to defend against the suits. I want to know the other side of things:

What do you think that the RIAA should do to prevent piracy? Do you agree or disagree with the lawsuits as they are doing them now? Do you suggest a better way? How about your opinion on the current state of copyright law?

Wireless

[Space (13455)]

I have an open wireless network. If the RIAA tracks music sharing to my IP address am I liable for traffic which is possibly produced by my neighbors?

allofmp3

[giafly (926567)]

What's the position of Americans who buy from legal offshore music sites, such as allofmp3 [allofmp3.com]?. Is this safer than downloading "free"?

When is it illegal?

[Anonymous Coward]

At what point does it become illegal?
- Simply having the music on your computer?
- Downloading more music?
- Actually uploading and sharing the music?

I understand how uploading songs could be construed as a violation of copyright laws, but I fail to understand how downloading them for personal use puts the downloader in violation of those laws.

The author or the user?

[GlobalEcho (26240)]

Some years ago, the RIAA's legal actions tended to be againt companies, such as Napster, that created the tools or ran servers used by millions of people to share files. Much of this sharing consisted of alleged copyright violations, so the argument was that such software was contributory to infringement despite any non-infringing uses it might have.

Many people here on Slashdot were repelled (so to speak) by the attack on software that did truly have non-infringing uses, and argued that the lawsuits should target the individuals responsible, rather than the technology they were using. I had a lot of sympathy for those arguments.

Now that the RIAA does sue individuals instead, do you believe they do so because it became too hard to sue companies, or because they bought into the idea of individual responsibility? In other words, did the category of lawsuits change because the companies and software are now structured so as to be too difficult to sue?

Historic precedent?

[Weaselmancer (533834)]

Are there any precedents in history of any industry doing anything like this before? I know there have been examples of cartels forming and the cartel using their combined power against other businesses, but is there anything in history like a cartel using its massive legal leverage against their own customer base?

Re:Historic precedent?

[Weaselmancer (533834)]

True, other monopolies do exercise their powers against their customers, but in a cash-only way as far as I know. To explain a bit, has an oil company ever sued someone for using biodiesel? A cellular company for people using HAM radio? The analogies aren't perfect, but hopefully you get my gist. The RIAA seems to be doing something unique. They're not just gouging their customer base, they're taking them to court over perceived (and very hard to justify) damages in what amounts to an extortion racket.

So, has any other cartel ever done anything like this?

Theft

[trewornan (608722)]

Could you finally settle that age old Slashdot bone of contention:

Is copyright infringement, theft (or not).

Where is the line?

[paulevans (791844)]

It seems to me that what the RIAA is doing is pure extortion using the courts. What line hasn't been crossed that has kept what they are doing legal?

Are RIAA's tactics racketeering?

[techmuse (160085)]

RIAA presumably has a right to defend its copyrights in court, but its tactics seem to be designed to force people to avoid a fight that, while they might win, might also drain them financially. Does this count as racketeering? If so, could RIAA be subject to a class action suit under the RICO laws? If not, how can ordinary citizens who may have done nothing wrong defend themselves without burning through all of their cash in the process?

What about

[chefjoeardee (1001809)]

I've always wondered this and I'm not sure entirely how it would work but if a household has a wireless connection setup and they maintain standard security (WEP, MAC filtering) and the such, which clearly shown to be vulnerable to attacks/intrusion, how can a court prove without doubt that it was in fact that person who was involved in piracy? Furthermore, would it be their fault? They implemented the security they could yet there are still ways around it. If it still holds up for the RIAA side, couldn't they just blindly point fingers at people (not that they already don't) and win?

I like to trade Anime mp3's

[Travoltus (110240)]

which come from Japan.

I just want to clarify.. the RIAA can't sue me for that, can they?

Which of the following are illegal ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Which of the following are illegal and why? Which of the following are in a legal grey area?

1) Trading CDs via US Mail
2) Ripping CDs that I own to mp3, and playing them on my computer.
        2a) Backing up CDs to mp3 on my computer
3) Ripping CDs that I own to mp3, and then putting them on my mp3 player for my own personal use.
        3a)Loaning the mp3 player to my friend with the ripped music from question 3
4) Borrowing a CD from the library, ripping the CD to my computer and listening to the music on my mp3 player, and deleting the music when I return the CD to the library.
        4a) Never deleting the music from the computer/mp3 player
5) Emailing an mp3 from question 2 to one friend to listen to, and requesting that he delete it once he is finished.
        5a) emailing an mp3 to 10 friends and asking them to delete it once its been listened to?
        5b) ...not asking them to delete it.
6) Using a p2p service to trade mp3s from CDs they own with mp3s from CDs you own
7) Using allofmp3 to download music
8) Stripping copy protection from iTunes or PlaysForSure music files, to play them on your mp3 player.
9) How does the RIAA show that the music you have on your computer are not backup mp3 files from CDs that were destroyed or lost by you?
      9a) Can I use a p2p service to acquire a song I legally owned from a CD I owned, but was destroyed or lost?

IP Addresses

[MECC (8478)]

I haven't looked at so-called screenshots that the RIAA produces in court, and haven't myself looked at a Kazaa screen (or limewire, etc) to see what kind of IP addresses are shown, but there are two possibilities: the public IP address or the Private IP address. More and more on the Internet, each public IP address has behind it some private IP addresses, that typically can't be connected reliably for a given time to a specific computer, let alone a specific hard drive.
Questions:
Does current 4th amendment legal precedent allow for the confiscation of anything capable of storing files from behind a public IP address?

In otherwords, if I'm running a 'Internet cafe', and someone in my place allegedly downloads a music file, and the public IP shows up on an RIAA screenshot, is it legal for a judge to order everything in my cafe to be confiscated and searched? Does 4th amendment legal precedent allow for such mass grab-everything-and-go searches?

Has anyone ever pointed out to a judge how easy it is to fake a screenshot? Are there any rules of discovery regarding such flimsy evidence? I mean, suppose I want to accuse the RIAA of threatening me with murder in a court, and produce a piece of paper with a death threat that has the RIAA's corporate headquarters letterhead on it, all on a very good looking piece of laser printed output. Wouldn't most courts throw out something so easily faked? What if I just handwrote in crayon "I'm the RIAA and I'm coming to kill you" on a piece of paper, and them sued them using that as evidence? How far would that get in a court of law?

Are there such things as 'vexatious litigant' laws is some states? If so, how does someone get declared to be a 'vexatious litigant', and what are the consequences?

Can the RIAA and ASCAP/BMI tie up podcasting?

[crovira (10242)]

I am a podcaster ( MSBPodcast.com ) and one of my big concerns is that the RIAA will make all my music disappear or tie me up in legalities.

Could ASCAP/BMI (and other worse regimes, like the European models,) force me to pay a licence fee for my very small audience (only 0.0833% of the population has MS.)

Under what circumstances is copying legal

[greyfeld (521548)]

While I belive that downloading songs via P2P networks and burning copies of CD recordings with a computer CD-ROM drive is illegal under current law, I was wondering under what circumstances, if any, copying of recorded music on CDs is allowed for personal use. I have been under the impression for some time that the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992 allows me to make all of the private use digital copies I would like provided I am using something like a set-top CD Recorder and the taxed blank CD's produced for music copying. How does borrowing a CD from the public library and making a copy using one of these types of devices fall under the long arm of the RIAA and existing law? Thanks for taking the time to address this.

Here are what I believe to be the relevent sections from the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992:

Section 1001 defines a "digital audio recording device" as: "Any machine or device of a type commonly distributed to individuals for use by individuals, whether or not included with or as part of some other machine or device, the digital recording function of which is designed or marketed for the primary purpose of, and that is capable of, making a digital audio copied recording for private use ...".

Section 1001 defines a "digital audio recording medium" as "any material object in a form commonly distributed for use by individuals, that is primarily marketed or most commonly used by consumers for the purpose of making digital audio copied recordings by use of a digital audio recording device.

Such term (digital audio recording medium - my addition) does not include any material object--

(i) that embodies a sound recording at the time it is first distributed by the importer or manufacturer; or

(ii) that is primarily marketed and most commonly used by consumers either for the purpose of making copies of motion pictures or other audiovisual works or for the purpose of making copies of nonmusical literary works, including computer programs or data bases."

Section 1008 says "No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the non-commercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog music recordings."

Based on my reading of this act, I cannot be sued or arrested under a certain set of circumstances. I.e., using a set-top CD recorder and taxed Music CD blanks. Are there other laws that circumvent this and make it illegal?

Gray Area Questions

[Four_One_Nine (997288)]

Over the years I have attempted to educate some of the 'younger' generation about the do-s and don't-s of music copying and sharing. The following questions have come up out of real experiences and I have never had anyone provide a reasonable (justifiable) answer.

1. If I purchase a CD and it is subsequently stolen (along with my 5 disc changer *@$#!!) do I retain any rights to listen to that music?

. a. Are the .mp3 files of that CD on my computer legal or do they now belong to the thief too?

. b. Can I re-burn a CD from the .mp3s and is that legal?

. c. Does me having a backup copy of the files on my computer mean I can't make an insurance claim?

. d. What if it is destroyed (for example by a fire) rather than stolen?

2. If I purchase a CD and it is subsequently scratched or broken to the point where it is not playable, can I legally download the songs from that CD from a file-sharing network?

3. If I purchase the DVD for a movie, could I legally download songs from the soundtrack for that movie from a file-sharing network?

4. If I purchase a CD that our entire family listens to, and then my daughter leaves for College, can she legally take a copy of an .mp3 ripped from that CD with her on her computer? or - similarly - could she take the disc and could I keep the .mp3 on my computer?

RIAA's Legal Standing

[brainee28 (772585)]

I'm a bit confused as to the RIAA's standing within the court.

If copyright infringement is the basis for the suit, then would not the copyright holder have to bring on the action against the suspected infringing party? The RIAA does not represent all studios and artists, yet they are bringing actions against an individual without their group directly being infringed upon. I understand that they are representing the interests of the studios and or copyright holders, but doesn't the actual copyright holder have to bring their case forth?

From what I've read of the RIAA, they seem to be instigating actions against individuals, but there's not been mentioned any direct copyright holders bringing actions against individuals. Could you clarify this please?

Multiple Ownership of A Physical Copy

[kthejoker (931838)]

What are the exact legal laws for ownership of a particular piece of content, such as a book, CD, or DVD?

If I buy a CD, can my wife make a copy? If my son-in-law buys a CD, can I make a copy?
If two people each contribute $5 to buy a $10 DVD, can they make a copy?
If 100 people each contribue a dime to buy a $10 DVD, can they all gather together and watch it?
Can a corporation own a DVD? Can they make the DVD or DVD content viewable on a secure intranet for all employees of the corporation? Can they make it downloadable?

Are there any specific cases or laws relating to this? How many people can own a CD? Is it limited to one person? One household? Also if you could address any possible permutations or exceptions I may have missed, that would be great.

Countersuits

[zentinal (602572)]

In your opinion is there a percentage of countersuits (compared to the number of suits filed by the RIAA), particularly percentage of countersuits won, that would dissuade the RIAA from filing suits of this kind?

On a related note, is there such a thing as a class action countersuit? Can those sued by the RIAA gather together and countersue the RIAA?

Jury Nullification

[WarmBoota (675361)]

Has anyone ever considered Jury Nullification to get folks to simply declare the concept of intellectual property and perpetual copyright invalid? If most folks agree (and I don't know if they do or not) that the law is broken, isn't the judge obliged to agree?

Safeguards?

[russotto (537200)]

Realistically, what safeguards are there against someone simply suing you, on any grounds or no grounds at all, and offering a settlement which is slightly below the minimum it would cost to defend oneself? This isn't just the RIAA; DirecTV did the same thing against people who bought perfectly legal "unloopers", and when they countersued, the judge slapped them with DirecTVs legal costs.

Isn't it illegal?

[cgreuter (82182)]

It's pretty clear that the RIAA's lawsuit strategy is based on forcing a settlement rather than seeing the case go to court. Furthermore, it seems like these cases are pretty groundless and the only reason they keep winning is because it's cheaper to settle than it is to fight.

So that being the case, isn't that barratry? Why hasn't the RIAA been charged for that?

Why aren't you going on the offensive?

[Civil_Disobedient (261825)]

Instead of playing Whack-a-Mole by defending clients that are being extorted by these thugs in Gabardine, why aren't you doing anything about stopping it in the first place? Why haven't you petititioned the Attorney General to bring RICO charges against the members of the RIAA?